Higher Harmonics - Total harmonic distortion of Lithium ion batteries

Thread Starter

VijayshankarDandapani

Joined Jan 29, 2021
4
I am looking at the higher harmonic responses of large amplitude input perturbation current signal to a lithium ion battery. From the electrochemical standpoint I see certain characteristic features physically in the cell and a corresponding fingerprint in the harmonics. For example - the third harmonic is greater than the second harmonic in a specific frequency range whenever there is lithium plating in the battery cell. I want to understand what this means in terms of the second and third harmonic ? Any pointers to resources on this would be very helpful. Thank you in advance. Fell free to let me know if you need more information.
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
16,093
I am looking at the higher harmonic responses of large amplitude input perturbation current signal to a lithium ion battery. From the electrochemical standpoint I see certain characteristic features physically in the cell and a corresponding fingerprint in the harmonics. For example - the third harmonic is greater than the second harmonic in a specific frequency range whenever there is lithium plating in the battery cell. I want to understand what this means in terms of the second and third harmonic ? Any pointers to resources on this would be very helpful. Thank you in advance. Fell free to let me know if you need more information.
Are you concerned with the charger input to the battery or the load transient caused by connection to the load or perhaps both.
 

Audioguru again

Joined Oct 21, 2019
3,172
AC can have harmonic distortion, DC cannot.
But a Lithium battery is charged with DC, not AC so it does not produce harmonic distortion.

Maybe you are talking about seeing harmonic distortion on the AC that feeds the charger? Of course the 3rd harmonic is prominent because the AC waveform is squashed by the rectifiers charging the filter capacitors.

If you see Lithium plating then the charging voltage is too high or the Lithium battery was discharged to a voltage too low.
 

Delta Prime

Joined Nov 15, 2019
991
Hello there :)
Are you conducting research in.
Electrochemical Impedance Spectroscopy (EIS) and the higher harmonic dispersion functions we call nonlinear electrochemical impedance spectroscopy (NLEIS)?
Because simulations show, for the first time, the full spectrum second and third harmonic NLEIS response of lithium ion batteries fingerprint!
If you are then I need to talk to you
 
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Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
16,093
AC can have harmonic distortion, DC cannot.
But a Lithium battery is charged with DC, not AC so it does not produce harmonic distortion.

Maybe you are talking about seeing harmonic distortion on the AC that feeds the charger? Of course the 3rd harmonic is prominent because the AC waveform is squashed by the rectifiers charging the filter capacitors.

If you see Lithium plating then the charging voltage is too high or the Lithium battery was discharged to a voltage too low.
In particular harmonic distortion is a steady state phenomena and is generally not associated with transient behaviors. I missed that one -- my bad.
 

Thread Starter

VijayshankarDandapani

Joined Jan 29, 2021
4
Hello there :)
Are you conducting research in.
Electrochemical Impedance Spectroscopy (EIS) and the higher harmonic dispersion functions we call nonlinear electrochemical impedance spectroscopy (NLEIS)?
Because simulations show, for the first time, the full spectrum second and third harmonic NLEIS response of lithium ion batteries fingerprint!
If you are then I need to talk to you
I am/was. We can talk. Sent you a PM. Cheers !
 
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Thread Starter

VijayshankarDandapani

Joined Jan 29, 2021
4
AC can have harmonic distortion, DC cannot.
But a Lithium battery is charged with DC, not AC so it does not produce harmonic distortion.

Maybe you are talking about seeing harmonic distortion on the AC that feeds the charger? Of course the 3rd harmonic is prominent because the AC waveform is squashed by the rectifiers charging the filter capacitors.

If you see Lithium plating then the charging voltage is too high or the Lithium battery was discharged to a voltage too low.
Thank you for the interesting thought process. I am talking about an experiment rather than actual operation in practice. In that research experiment I am using a large amplitude AC signal to excite the battery. Does that make sense ?
FYI - bad idea to put your email in public post. Spam-bots will scrape
Thank you for this. Removed it. But your reply thread has my ID :) Would be great if you could remove it, thank you !
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
16,093
Thank you for the interesting thought process. I am talking about an experiment rather than actual operation in practice. In that research experiment I am using a large amplitude AC signal to excite the battery. Does that make sense ?

Thank you for this. Removed it. But your reply thread has my ID :) Would be great if you could remove it, thank you !
Done
 

Thread Starter

VijayshankarDandapani

Joined Jan 29, 2021
4
Are you concerned with the charger input to the battery or the load transient caused by connection to the load or perhaps both.
I cant quite understand the question. I will try to explain in more detail. I just want to understand what it means to have the third harmonic higher in value to the second harmonic in certain frequency range. What is the physical meaning of such an observation ? Lets forget the load/charger input etc. I have a potentiostat with which I can apply certain AC perturbation to my battery cell. This is basically the premise. I want to study a high AC signal input to my battery, and I observe the above in my output data. I have opened the cell physically and I see that I have lithium plating in my cell. I so want to know what the physical relevance is of the 3rd harmonic and 2nd harmonic and the former being larger than the latter so that I can bring in some understanding to the lithium plating part. Hope its a bit more clear. Thanks in advance to your reply.
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
16,093
I cant quite understand the question. I will try to explain in more detail. I just want to understand what it means to have the third harmonic higher in value to the second harmonic in certain frequency range. What is the physical meaning of such an observation ? Lets forget the load/charger input etc. I have a potentiostat with which I can apply certain AC perturbation to my battery cell. This is basically the premise. I want to study a high AC signal input to my battery, and I observe the above in my output data. I have opened the cell physically and I see that I have lithium plating in my cell. I so want to know what the physical relevance is of the 3rd harmonic and 2nd harmonic and the former being larger than the latter so that I can bring in some understanding to the lithium plating part. Hope its a bit more clear. Thanks in advance to your reply.
OK. What is the nature of the AC perturbation? Could it be modeled as: Asinωt for some choice of amplitude A and frequency ω? If so and you posit that the battery is a linear device, then there is no mechanism for creating new frequencies. If instead you posit that the battery is a non-linear device, then you get a mechanism for creating new frequencies. As for the relative magnitudes of the harmonics - that is above my pay grade.

If the input perturbation has a rich harmonic content, as say a square wave might have, then that is another story. Relative magnitudes of the harmonics is again above my pay grade.

One more question. Is it just the 3rd harmonic that has a higher amplitude or is it all odd harmonics? Enhanced amplitudes for odd harmonics is a common feature of crystal oscillators.
 

Audioguru again

Joined Oct 21, 2019
3,172
www.batteryuniversity.com talks about details of Lithium battery problems like plating.
It has something to do with too high or too low voltage.

The battery is supposed to be charged with a smooth DC voltage and current but you are wrongly adding AC which varies the voltage causing plating and maybe an explosion and fire.

Even-order harmonics are caused by an asymmetrical waveform, the top or the bottom is squashed.
Odd-order harmonics are caused by symmetrical squashing of both the top and bottom of the waveform.

Lower numbered harmonics are usually higher in amplitude.

EDIT: Some crystal oscillators produce a pure sinewave with almost no harmonics but other crystal oscillators produce a symmetrical squarewave with odd-order harmonics. A squarewave is a sinewave with its top and bottom squashed.
 

sparky 1

Joined Nov 3, 2018
540
Somewhere in the manufacturing process the resonant materials
making up a coin cell is one contributing factor. Some inductive transient properties can be useful
because precise timing is related to unwanted formations.

A video on electrochemical process perspective.

next, the condition that causes the snow flakes as a analogy, the formation during solidity transition state.
more specifically finding any frequencies that inhibit dendrite formation and enhance open pathway.
The thermal sensing on the IC's mosfet would not ne ignored from an electrochemical perspective.

The dendrite growth issue. touches on one type of conditioning materials.
Harmonics can influence conditioning.
 
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