HCF4027B delayed commutation.

bertus

Joined Apr 5, 2008
20,738
Hello

Just download the book with one of the links on the right side of the page
It is available as pdf and is about 43 Mb large

Bertus
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
266
Hello mister bertus, thank you very much ! I did find the download options in the right, but I swear, I looked at it before like 4 times and didnt see it there at all, my brain just skip it, just because.

mister dl324 can you make a similar correction over other kit series of IC ?
For 7000 and other more important ones ? (if they exist)
By the way, how many series of IC exist? (like the 4000 and 7000 i do know)
That 4000 list is genius ! (with the corrections)

Based on your list, (from curiosity and also for prospect) I just made this list:
$0.88 10Pcs CD4001 CD4001BM SOP-14 TI CMOS QUAD BILATERAL SWITCH IC KQ
$1.85 10Pcs CD4011 CD4011BM SOP14 CMOS 4-Way 2-Input Logic Chip IC
$1.11 10PCS CD4013BE CD4013 Integrated Circuit Dual D-Type Flip Flop
$2.12 10PCS CD4015BE DIP 16 CD4015 CMOS Dual 4-Stage Static Shift Register M
$0.89 10PCS CD4017 CD4017BE 4017 DECADE COUNTER DIVIDER IC A
$2.58 10PCS CD4023BE CD4023 TI DIP-14 DIP14 CMOS NAND Gates IC 14pin DIP new
$2.67 10pcs CD4027BE CD4027 IC DUAL JK MASTR-SLV F-F DIP-16
$2.11 10pcs CD4049 4000 CMOS DIP Chip Hex Buffer / Converters 3V-18V DIP-16
$1.74 10PCS CD4050BE CMOS HEX BUFFERS/CONVERTERS DIP16
$0.96 10Pcs CD4066BE CD4066 SOP-14 TI CMOS QUAD BILATERAL SWITCH IC MT
$1.10 10PCS CD4069UBE new in-line DIP-14 logic chip new and original IC HF
$2.16 10PCS CD4070BE CD4070BD DIP-14 IC
$2.98 10pcs CD4071 CD4071BE CD4071BD DIP-14 Logic Chip/Binary Count DIP
$1.58 10pcs CD4081BE CD4081 DIP Original DIP-14 TI Chip IC
$1.37 10PCS CD4093BE CD4093 4093 DIP-14 TI CHIP.FR
$1.37 10pcs CD4511 CD4511BE 4511 CMOS BCD to 7 segment Latch Decoder INWUS
$27.47 total

In your list we paid $89. All my prices are from ebay. If you dont trust it, take it as informative. I personally trust cheapy. : ) Haha. I wish i could permit more.
 
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dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,455
$0.88 10Pcs CD4001 CD4001BM SOP-14 TI CMOS QUAD BILATERAL SWITCH IC KQ
If you're planning to breadboard circuits, SOP-14 (they're usually called SOIC-14) will require adapters.
an you make a similar correction over other kit series of IC ?
For 7000 and other more important ones ?
I wouldn't start any new designs with 74xx or 74LS. Prices have gone up on those because there's little demand. You could use 74HCT/ACT for TTL equivalents, but I find that CD4xxx has sufficient variety. CD4xxx, MC14xxx, HEF4xxx should all operate at 3-15V; 18V is the absolute maximum voltage and we don't generally operate near that.
1580689734325.png
 
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dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,455
For MOSFETs, I use 2N7000 N channel for general purpose circuits. For logic level (low threshold voltage), I use AO3400 and A03401; they're complementary devices in SOT-23.

All MOSFET devices are static sensitive. I handle with reasonable care, but have damaged several 2N7000 in the past few years. All of the damaged ones sort of worked, but exhibited abnormally high leakage.
 
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dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,455
Here's a suggested list of 74* parts to start with. I'd go with 74HC or 74AC. 74xx, 74S, and 74LS parts have gotten expensive and are power hungry.

1580711454302.png

Instead of 74*90 for a counter, I'd go with 74*190-3. Pick a binary counter and a decade counter with synchronous or asynchronous clear; whichever you think will be more useful to you.

74*194, a bidirectional shift register, could also be useful.
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
266
You could use 74HCT/ACT for TTL equivalents, but I find that CD4xxx has sufficient variety.
In my mind, each category (4000,7000,etc) have unique functionalities. They are different.
This is an old question of mine, about equivalents: What are they really?
My BEST guess, it just happens that some Ic's from different brands,and factories,and technologies, to have the same functionality.
This is the best answer i could give myself. I didn't read about it anywhere.
Is there an information source for IC equivalencies between brands,series?

All MOSFET devices are static sensitive.
I didnt know that. I only know about some transistors with field effect...FET's, to be sensitive to my welding gun, wich have a transformer,
and the electrical field from it will knock out these special components. But I have a limited store of transistors anyway, and im sure there are no Fet's in there.
If they are, they are dead for long time. Haha.
I did actually heard of mosfet IC's but again, i didnt used them in my life. Its very good that you mention this detail!
My advice is to change from FET IC to non FET. I guess they have some advantages. I dont really know them.
But these days, maybe you can find their equivalents in other brands,series as we are already in this subject. Who knows.
I probably give stupid 'advice' right now. But my idea, i personally would keep a few of them for the cost reasons and their fragility,
and more of the normal ones and the FET equiv if possible. What my good sense dictates.

Here's a suggested list of 74* parts to start with. I'd go with 74HC or 74AC. 74xx, 74S, and 74LS parts have gotten expensive and are power hungry.
What is the diference between 74HC, 74AC, 74S, and 74LS ? (They are all that you enumerated so far, I should probably look too over them) But i would like your opinion first. Or mister bertus here also. The more, the better. I like your sleepy cat avatar btw. : )
 

dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,455
In my mind, each category (4000,7000,etc) have unique functionalities. They are different.
This is an old question of mine, about equivalents: What are they really?
My BEST guess, it just happens that some Ic's from different brands,and factories,and technologies, to have the same functionality.
CD4xxx and 7xxx have chips with equivalent functionality (e.g. CD4011 is a quad 2 input NAND and so is 7400). They don't use the same part numbers because they have different pin outs and electrical characteristics.

If a part has the same "standard" number, then it's intended to be a drop-in replacement, e.g. CD4011 = MC14001 = HEF4011. Sometimes they make subtle changes, but one part should be interchangeable with another of the same part number. The same goes for other devices. If you buy a 2N3904 from Motorola and National Semiconductor, they should be drop-in replacements.
My advice is to change from FET IC to non FET. I guess they have some advantages.
TTL had a speed advantage over CMOS back in the 70's, but that changed in the 80's. TTL requires more power than TTL (at similar voltages and integration). CMOS uses less power than TTL because most power is consumed when devices are switching (until you get to smaller transistor geometries, sub 90nm, where leakage current becomes a big factor).

CMOS uses much less power than NMOS, TTL or ECL. There's a CMOS process that combines TTL (actual transistors, not logic thresholds) called Bi-CMOS. 74HCT has TTL level compatible inputs with CMOS outputs, but the input devices are still CMOS that are sized to provide the same logic levels as TTL.

What is the diference between 74HC, 74AC, 74S, and 74LS ?
HC = High speed CMOS
HCT = High speed CMOS with TTL compatible inputs
AC = Advanced CMOS
S = Schottky TTL
LS = Low power Schottky
74 with no letter(s) = standard TTL (one of the first logic families)
 

MrChips

Joined Oct 2, 2009
21,815
Don't mix logic families.
74HC is vastly different from 74LS.

For hobby projects, stick with 74HC unless you have specific voltage and speed requirements.
An alternative is to stick with CD4000 series logic ICs.

Differences in manufacturer brands is not as critical as differences in families.
74HC from one manufacturer will be compatible with 74HC from another manufacturer.
 

dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
11,455
You need to read the datasheets carefully.

HEF4017B from Nexperia say that the clock inputs are Schmitt triggers:
1580744041391.png
1580744052155.png
1580744072041.png
But they don't mention that in the rise/fall time specs for clock. Or show that either clock input is Schmitt in the logic diagram.

1580744431883.png


CD4017 from TI, Harris, and RCA don't mention Schmitt inputs on the clocks, but they indicate unlimited rise/fall time in the electrical characteristics:
1580744260146.png
1580744280884.png

But the logic diagram only shows a Schmitt input on one clock. I take that to mean that clocking on the inhibit pin doesn't allow slow rise/fall times.
1580744368735.png

Motorola datasheet provides about the same information as TI, but they also give TTL drive capability:
1580745745887.png

Note that Low-power TTL is 74L and sometimes (always) has a different pinout than other 74* logic (I learned the hard way). Low-power Schottky TTL is 74LS.

CMOS output levels are compatible with TTL input levels, but TTL output levels aren't compatible with CMOS input levels. Hence the caution for newbies to not intermix logic families unless they know what they're doing.
 
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crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
25,367
I take that to mean that clocking on the inhibit pin doesn't allow slow rise/fall times.
Only if the Inhibit signal is generating an internal clock signal.
If the inhibit changes when the external Clock signal is low, then it can have a slow rise/fall time.
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
266
Very nice book "IC Specifications and Simple Interfacing" mister bertus
I managed to make the schmitt trigger after mister MrChips circuit. And it works as expected. Very very nice. I had to change LDR resistor 10k into 1k or jumper, to see the effect. Now i have to add a relay to the output where currently the test led is. For sure i have to command it through a tranzistor.
 

AnalogKid

Joined Aug 1, 2013
8,575
You need to read the datasheets carefully. HEF4017B from Nexperia say that the clock inputs are Schmitt triggers:
Only the positive-going clock input. The Enable input can be used as a negative-going clock input, but it is not Schmitt. Too bad; a stupid omission way back when.

ak
 

atferrari

Joined Jan 6, 2004
4,086
@q12x

You talk too much, you derail continuously your own thread and you do not keep focus on the point in question.

After reading the whole thread I consider I wasted my time.

Blah, blah, blah.
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
266
I already mentioned that MrChips circuit did its job already. I test it and is working.
In a way, we finished the subject and the original problem is solved now.
If you have the pleasure to indulge a bit more into discussion... it should be easy and a breeze for you on this trivial subject.

I found an alternative to the schmitt trigger, and probably must certain it was the idea for the second relay in my original circuit.
You see, when i moved my hand over ldr, first relay clicked, and after i moved it out, first relay clicked again. Moving my hand out of the ldr, made the second relay get switched too, to make the mains contact.
Thats what i liked about it; it certainly wasnt the best design, but it was fun to use it. A feel of using it, more precisely. I think is hard to understand from just words.
Here is the circuit for the alternative... not very fancy at all.
LDR to relay switch.jpg
I have 2 problems with this circuit:
1- Some transistors open directly on 5V to their base, others need rezistor on their base to open. I test a few, and some have nothing written on them. Can you explain why some are direct and some not? Thank you. I suspect i have some kind of darlington transistors, maybe ?
2- The relay stay open all the time. When I engage the ldr, the relay shut off. but if i disengage the ldr, the relay stay on. I wish i can inverse it. What can be a simple solution to do it?

alternative 3 - Im also contemplating the idea of inserting a little buzzer(or a piezo), to reproduce the relay click (or close to it), using the initial schmitt trigger who is working extremely well already. The idea of the buzzer is to get the click on shadow over ldr and then shadow leave ldr. Right now i only have the original relay click sound on shadow leave ldr. Also, if im using a buzzer to simulate the clicks, i can replace the relay with a diac-triac switch for 220Vac. I never done it with a bulb, only with some 220Vac motors.

Thank you all, for your awesome help.
 
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