I guess I could wire the harness provided, to ground both the spark coils (7 amps), and see if the engine stops before the 5 amp insulation melts.
I just don't know how long the coils can be at maximum current without harming them.


The starter motor does not keep the gasoline engine running when there is no spark, so I think I can allow that to continue functioning. If the customer is arriving at his garage, hits the kill switch, and presses the starter button at the same time, I will have to find a way to disable the starter when activating the kill switch.

Isn't the kill switch usually of the momentary type?

 

Isn't the kill switch usually of the momentary type?

All the kill switches I've seen were either a 3 position rotary switch with only 1 on position, or a rocker switch.

Jet ski type things have an enable pin tethered to the operator's wrist, if they fall off it pulls the pin and cuts the engine.

 

Menudo? You mean the band??

No... I mean the soup that #12's so fond of

​

 

#12. I haven,t read through all the posts but generally a Harley starter will draw between 80-150amps depending on engine size as indicated by #4 cable. If the solenoid is staying engaged, often times it is caused by blow batteries. The effect is low resistance resulting in higher amperage and the contacts will weld themselves together. Load test batteries and rule them out before going into the cranking circuit. Let me know hat you find.

 

Cilantro is what you yanks call Coriander!!

Us yanks call cilantro seeds, coriander. We call cilantro leaves, Cilantro.

 

I haven't read through all the posts...

In the case of this special thread, that was a good choice.

 

Here in Tucson, I don't have coriander in my cupboard, I have fresh Cilantro in the produce drawer in my refrigerator.

 

You can all quit on the starter current. I have decided what to do, as in post #27, four days ago.
Better to discuss cilantro.

 

#12, I have to say that I am surprised. I took you for someone who would repair a problem with precision like a surgeon, not someone who would hodge-podge something together to see if it might work. This problem you are having can only be caused by one of four things. A low battery resulting in welded solenoid contacts, a defective solenoid made of inferior materials (aftermarket solenoids), mechanical binding or the control circuit to the solenoid staying energized. So far and from your description, I would look at the battery(load test). and check your voltage drops on your starter insulated cable and your ground circuit.
On the food side, my wife who is a foodie, calls cilantro the smelly sock spice. Apparently my socks and this spice have something in common. Good luck on the bike.

 

This problem you are having.

I am not having a problem. The customer is not having a problem. This problem with the solenoid has never happened to this motorcycle or this customer. I can't measure it because I don't have it. I can't diagnose it because it has never happened. The best I can figure out is to add a car solenoid which disconnects the battery from the motorcycle starter solenoid when the start button is not pressed. If the motorcycle solenoid sticks 'on' forever, the car solenoid will still cure the problem. That is a fail-safe solution which will work for all cases of solenoid sticking on any motorcycle in the world, and you think it's a kludge. I don't.

 

I am not having a problem. The customer is not having a problem. This problem with the solenoid has never happened to this motorcycle or this customer. I can't measure it because I don't have it. I can't diagnose it because it has never happened.

Okay, I am officially confused???? You asked for current draw for a Harley Davidson and then in Post #8, described something that apparently doesn't exist? Apparently then, I didn't give you the answers to a problem (which also doesn't exist), for a customer (who doesn't have a problem) on a motorcycle that has no problem. I am truly sorry for having done that, my apologies.

 

This sticky solenoid is only known to me by stories people tell. Apparently it jams mechanically in the 'on' position. One quick look and I could see a fuse is a bad thing to do at over a hundred amps. I could add a huge knife switch or a car solenoid to disconnect the battery from the starter motor. Either of them is a, "just in case" scenario.

 

Could it be possible that said solenoid is getting stuck because its contacts are getting fused together, instead of it being a purely mechanical problem?

 

Could it be possible that said solenoid is getting stuck because its contacts are getting fused together, instead of it being a purely mechanical problem?

Covered in post #64 and #69.

This sticky solenoid is only known to me by stories people tell. Apparently it jams mechanically in the 'on' position. One quick look and I could see a fuse is a bad thing to do at over a hundred amps. I could add a huge knife switch or a car solenoid to disconnect the battery from the starter motor. Either of them is a, "just in case" scenario.

The automotive and truck industry now installs large Megafuses in the charging circuit but the starting circuit is still without fusing. It is possible but should not be necessary. Sorry, I tend to look more at the problem or the cause before I go looking at outside-the-box solutions. These systems were designed by brilliant emgineers so there should not be a flaw in the original design....should there?
In retrospect of what you have offered as a solution, the bike industry have stayed with a primitive starting circuit whereas the automotive and truck industry now have a relay which controls the solenoid on the starter. There is still however, no means of cutting off battery power to the solenoid. Once those contacts weld together, B+ meets motor. Still wondering about low battery or voltage drop.....just saying hypothetically cause I know this problem doesn't exist

 

These systems were designed by brilliant engineers so there should not be a flaw in the original design....should there?

I'm spending this winter rehabilitating a 2005 Ford Explorer. Most of the problems are caused by microprocessors gone bad. For instance, the wiring diagram shows two ceiling lights are on the same wire and they come on when the doors open and shut off 25 seconds after you slam the door or immediately when you turn the ignition key. The front ceiling light is stuck on permanently because they used (2) circuits to switch the interior lights and lied about it in the wiring diagram. The cure is to replace the whole instrument cluster. Or cut the microprocessor controlled wire to the front ceiling light and thus make it a, "manual only" light.

The light in the glove compartment is supposed to be unpowered 25 seconds after you leave the vehicle. It is stuck 'on'. Again, new instrument cluster.
Luckily, the switch on the glove compartment door still works, but I had to take out the light bulb while I had the dashboard disassembled for a week.

The climate controls modulate 3 motors to control variable position flaps in the air stream. Only one of them still works because the microprocessor went bad. I can buy a new climate control module or jam the flaps in the "cool" position and put a screw in the pivot so they can never move again. That's good enough for Florida.

The key fob doesn't work. It's transmitting, but nobody is receiving. The security microprocessor went bad.
Buy a module or stick a key in the door?
Stick a key in the door.

The daytime running lights don't come on. The microprocessor controlled module that measures ambient light and turns the front lights on failed.
Buy a new module or forget about the daytime running lights?

Every blinkety blank microprocessor in the car has failed except the ECU and the PCM. (Engine control and Transmission manager).
Well, fine with me. I need the engine and the transmission. The rest of that stuff is crap I don't need.

 

the bike industry have stayed with a primitive starting circuit whereas the automotive and truck industry now have a relay which controls the solenoid on the starter.

Careful with your generalizations. Harley is not the "bike industry" - not even close. Any "innovation" that happens at Harley likely comes from their market research department. I'm not sure they have any engineering research.

By the way, if you are interested in antique/vintage motorcycles and want to see some of the technologies used in the early days of Japanese motorcycles, take a ride on a brand new Harley.

 

Isn't the kill switch usually of the momentary type?

I've seen plenty of momentary, and plenty of multi-position switches for kill switches, it depends on the bike model.

@#12 - Is the real problem that the customer has a model solenoid that is known to be flaky, and he's trying to mitigate any future failure by coming up with a "solution" before the problem happens?

My theory; On this particular model bike, either the solenoid is undersized, OR people tend to crank and crank this motor, both of which would mechanically wear the solenoid. Eventually it fails, and the failure mode is sticking contacts. I think the real solution is to swap out the solenoid for a more reliable model. Maybe a heftier model from the automotive industry. Adding any extra bits is just needlessly complicating the system.

 

I tend to look more at the problem or the cause before I go looking at outside-the-box solutions.

I'm a designer. Design it wrong and I'll find a different way.

 

Is the real problem that the customer has a model solenoid that is known to be flaky, and he's trying to mitigate any future failure by coming up with a "solution" before the problem happens?

yes.

I think the real solution is to swap out the solenoid for a more reliable model.

Tell me when you find one that fits the starter motor and doesn't fail, "on".
(That's going to be difficult because I don't even know if this is a real Harley engine or it just looks like one.)
PS, send money for the new solenoid. The customer is a real cheapskate.

 

Ahh so the solenoid is integral to this starter? hmm... in that case, depending on the design, you can either hardware the solenoid internally, or just bypass it externally if the wires are external. Whatever looks prettier. Then install the new solenoid upstream. Many larger motors use stand-alone solenoids, so they are easy to find. Now getting your cheapskate customer to pay for it, you're on your own with that one.

No solenoid is fail proof, that's why they sell replacements. But if you get one with much greater capacity than what is required, there's probably less chance of the failure mode being stuck contacts:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=starter+solenoid


But now I understand your point, that you customer might just want a panic switch of some sort so he can disconnect power quickly IF the problem happens. Maybe something like this would be a nice solution (if you can shake his wallet free):

http://www.amazon.com/Fastronix-Cur...7&sr=8-1&keywords=high+current+battery+switch