Hi

I would request you that please note I'm not a native English speaker, as you can easily tell, therefore I have hard time expressing myself and many a time my sentences and words don't really express what I really want to say. So, please excuse poor choice of words and I don't intend to offend you in any way. Thank you.

I don't want this discussion to become religion vs. science debate. Besides, I don't think the question of existence of God comes under the realm of science. Science neither proves nor disproves the existence of God. Science works on certain parameters to reach a particular result. For instance, in order to seek a particular answer about air we need its temperature, humidity, pressure etc.

Recently I read an article which mentioned that a handful of scientists think that world came out of nothing. Well, it's hard to believe this for anyone. Well, one may argue that if a scientist says so then it's possible. One of founding pillars of mathematics is that you cannot divide by zero; it's utterly absurd. Therefore, even if a 'big' mathematician claims that you can divide by a zero, then his/her statement is very much doubtful. Besides perhaps at this stage it might seem plausible that the universe came out of nothing but perhaps they are missing on some hidden, mysterious background bigger reality. It reminds me of a story I once read about a magician in a rural area who used to claim that he can change the color of the air after reciting some incantation. The 'ignorant' audience did believe him. But actually he was simply mixing up two colorless gases to produce a
colorful gas.

As the history is our guide as we uncover one mystery of nature many a new mystery reveal themselves to baffle us more. In other words, when we think that we have just reached the horizons of science, the scientific horizon expands itself a little further so we can continue our pursuit of knowledge.

We all are open to our own interpretation of God and this shouldn’t hurt anyone. Simply put a phenomenon which is a miracle for one person could have a simple rational explanation for another person who doesn’t believe in miracles.

What I wanted to say is that what if God made the universe just for His 'fun' and don't really care about the self-important creature called human. Perhaps the creature is simply a by-product of workings of the universe. I don't understand the reason for God
creating the entire universe for man. What is so special about man?! Why did God create everything?

I know I'm not very clear with my ending but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Don't you?!

Thank you for your time and opinion.

 

Your english is excellent and you convey your thoughts better than 50% (made up figure) of native english speakers.

When this topic "where did we come from?" comes up, there are always different ideas. Some point to uncanny scenarios like bees pollenating flowers and the reproduction of ferns to make the point that our existence cannot be coincidence. I somewhat agree on these points so I don't know where I sit on the issue. I have always asked the question "If our existence has to be more than coincidence; if we and the earth had to have been created by God; If it is impossible for the earth or anything else to have originated out of nothing, cosmic dust; then where did God originate?" To that question, the answer is always the same: "God just was and always has been. he was not created. You just have to have faith! "; the shotgun answer any time you ask a Christian a question they don't have an answer for. Science has their own shotgun answers also. Everybody does. Everybody wants an explanation and everybody wants to give an explanation. They're all just reaching a bit too far in my opinion.

Like I said, I don't know where I sit on the issue, so I have a few different sets of beliefs I guess. In the set of beliefs where I believe in God, I think the Bible has (a lot of) it wrong; mainly because it is written by man. I don't think that we're anything special in God's plan. I don't think God made the universe for us. I also don't think that we're the only ones. Why would God make billions of planets and only put people (or other intelligent life) on one of them?

 

One of the things I have learned is that there are things I will never know. One of them is whether some God creature created our universe or maybe it just popped out of a defect in another universe. Some Doctor Who was playing with his time machine and created a leak in his universe? I can't even understand women. Who am I to think I can figure out the whole universe?

From an intergalactic point of view, we are just a layer of scum on a wet planet. (I hope nobody feels a need to Clorox the place!) All I can do is refrain from arguing with people that want to believe humans are important, like "the center of the universe" or "Gods chosen ones". I don't think I'm all that important. Others are free to have their beliefs.

When I dabble in science, it works. When I try to dabble in, "Who made the universe", it doesn't work.

 

I suspect we are important. We are rare, or we would have met someone else by now. Lord knows we've been announcing ourselves loud enough. If we continue to expand and grow humans will be both a major nuance and a changer of worlds. That is if we're smart enough to keep growing, and not collapse into ourselves on this small planet.

As for God, I'm a believer. I don't think the folks who claim to have the answers do, most of them want to control their fellow human beings (which I detest). But at my core I feel there is much more, death is a doorway, not the end.

I remember a writer stating, "When I want to find an Atheist I go to the Biology Dept., as finding one in the Astrophysics is too hard."

 

"Why did God create everything?"

"Why would God make billions of planets and only put people (or other intelligent life) on one of them?"

"Where did God originate?"

I'm happy that I'm not alone with these questions, even if nobody has an answer. Coming from a country where religion wasn't really promoted it was very interesting for me to live a few years in a country where almost everybody calls himself a Christian. I discussed these questions over and over again with friends and collegues and we never came to a conclusion.
Yeah, I think since there is no scientific proof it's all about faith. Actually I wanted to believe, but when you grow up in an environment where religion is absent you simply can't.
The standard answer of a believer is that there is no point in trying to understand the WHY because you simply can't, the same way a computer couldn't understand a human, his creator.
I like this subject, but it never leads me anywhere.


"From an intergalactic point of view, we are just a layer of scum on a wet planet."

I don't know why but the choice of words reminds me of Douglas Adams "Hitchhiker through the Galaxy" - highly philosophical what a shame he died so early.

 

In the words of Dan Brown, in his book Angels and Demons,

"Science and religion are not at odds. Science is simply too young to understand."

 

In the words of Dan Brown, in his book Angels and Demons,

Which religion is old enough to understand? There are several which are older than christianity

 

Coming from a country where religion wasn't really promoted it was very interesting for me to live a few years in a country where almost everybody calls himself a Christian.

I assumed you were canadian per your location. I thought Canada had a religious presence similar to the U.S. What country are you from?

 

I assumed you were canadian per your location. I thought Canada had a religious presence similar to the U.S. What country are you from?

East Germany - the so-called communism
I lived in Brazil - I guess it's one of the biggest christian communities (after the States)

 

East Germany - the so-called communism
I lived in Brazil - I guess it's one of the biggest christian communities (after the States)

Oh yeah, I remember your story now.

 

Which religion is old enough to understand? There are several which are older than christianity

The quote is saying that there are some things that science is too young to understand. They can really only be "explained" by religion.

 

I suspect we are important. We are rare, or we would have met someone else by now. Lord knows we've been announcing ourselves loud enough. If we continue to expand and grow humans will be both a major nuance and a changer of worlds. That is if we're smart enough to keep growing, and not collapse into ourselves on this small planet.

As for God, I'm a believer. I don't think the folks who claim to have the answers do, most of them want to control their fellow human beings (which I detest). But at my core I feel there is much more, death is a doorway, not the end.

I remember a writer stating, "When I want to find an Atheist I go to the Biology Dept., as finding one in the Astrophysics is too hard."

I agree with you Bill. Have you ever heard the famous mathematician at Oxford (and Christian) John Lennox speak on the topic of Stephen Hawking and God. He makes a lot of very good points. I won't even bother to try and match him and explain it, so I will just link to it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...u-explain-universe-God.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Let me paste some of what he said though.

But, as both a scientist and a Christian, I would say that Hawking's claim is misguided. He asks us to choose between God and the laws of physics, as if they were necessarily in mutual conflict.

But contrary to what Hawking claims, physical laws can never provide a complete explanation of the universe. Laws themselves do not create anything, they are merely a description of what happens under certain conditions.

What Hawking appears to have done is to confuse law with agency. His call on us to choose between God and physics is a bit like someone demanding that we choose between aeronautical engineer Sir Frank Whittle and the laws of physics to explain the jet engine.

That is a confusion of category. The laws of physics can explain how the jet engine works, but someone had to build the thing, put in the fuel and start it up. The jet could not have been created without the laws of physics on their own - but the task of development and creation needed the genius of Whittle as its agent.

Similarly, the laws of physics could never have actually built the universe. Some agency must have been involved.

To use a simple analogy, Isaac Newton's laws of motion in themselves never sent a snooker ball racing across the green baize. That can only be done by people using a snooker cue and the actions of their own arms.

Hawking's argument appears to me even more illogical when he says the existence of gravity means the creation of the universe was inevitable. But how did gravity exist in the first place? Who put it there? And what was the creative force behind its birth?

Similarly, when Hawking argues, in support of his theory of spontaneous creation, that it was only necessary for 'the blue touch paper' to be lit to 'set the universe going', the question must be: where did this blue touch paper come from? And who lit it, if not God?

Much of the rationale behind Hawking's argument lies in the idea that there is a deep-seated conflict between science and religion. But this is not a discord I recognise.




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And here is a quote he said that I completely agree with 100%. He took the words straight out of my mouth.

For me, as a Christian believer, the beauty of the scientific laws only reinforces my faith in an intelligent, divine creative force at work. The more I understand science, the more I believe in God because of my wonder at the breadth, sophistication and integrity of his creation.

​

 

I see the discord between science and religion, but it usually caused by one side or the other making claims the other side has evidence on, or claiming evidence that doesn't exist.

Having said that, matters of faith are just that. They can not be argued. People get angry when you do. Some people will kill (and feel good about themselves) to protect their particular dogmas. This is why threads that discuss it on this site generally get closed sooner or later.

We are getting close to that point IMO.

 

well let me get this in before that happens;

At my father funeral services the pastor made a comment that helped me understand;

'Imagine that during your life, you find that you've fallen over a steep precipice, and that instinctively your reach out for anything to save you. That is how many come to God'.

I love nature and all it's glory. I don't think that man is special. He offers nothing to the process, that any other life form doesn't.

I believe the earth is sleeping, giving us some time to develop. But it will awake again, cleansing much of life as we know it. Maybe then we'll understand our ignorance.

 

Yep, Dec 12, 2012.

 

Well, I came across this today and I just HAD to post it. Apparently you're not the only one asking this question:

O Lord, what are humans that you should care about them? What are mere mortals that you should think about them?

That is straight out of the Bible--Psalms 144:3

I would also like to thank the moderators for not closing this thread. I wonder if it would be possible to start a "Religion" forum?

 

Well, I have to say this moderators of this forums are quite understandable and rational minded. That's the only reason they didn't block/close this thread when I posted it. And the replies I have received are very much balanced without any 'noisy' rhetoric. Thank you.

 

Well, I came across this today and I just HAD to post it. Apparently you're not the only one asking this question:



That is straight out of the Bible--Psalms 144:3

I would also like to thank the moderators for not closing this thread. I wonder if it would be possible to start a "Religion" forum?

That would be about a appropriate as a politics forum, which is to say not. It is not the intend of this site even in the slightest. So far the conversation is civil, while this happens this thread is safe. All it takes is one hot head though, same as a conversation about politics.

It is not the subject that makes it dangerous and subject to closure, it is people. Always has been, always will be. Sooner than later someone will try pointing out how they have the answers and everyone else is wrong. It is inevitable, and when it happens this too will be part of a long line of threads that were ended.

All it takes is one.

 

I wish to comment that I am an atheist... and leave it at that. People are free to believe what they want. I don't believe in God (Yahweh), any other god, or gods. There will always be disagreement; science cannot prove nor disprove gods, because by their very definition they are not falsifiable.

Personally I think this thread will end up being closed like all the other religious threads. Maybe religion should be kept to forums dedicated to it or places like talk.origins.

 

So ends the reading of the New Testament for today; All rise. Now if everyone would join me and turn to page 86 in their Hymnals to join in singing the first three verses.