It doesn't bleeping matter! One side or the other is positive or negative compared to the other side. Pick one. There are several pairs of materials that create static electricity. One of them will come up lacking electrons and the other will come up with the surplus stolen from the first one. The only thing that matters is a difference in concentration. Pick one and its positive. Pick the other one and it's negative. Why are you asking me to pick one? I said in the link that I don't know. It's different for each of several pairs of materials
- I was just asking if were able to clarify.

One of the problems is the symbols we use in math to describe this current movement.

We use the plus sign and the minus sign to indicate the Polarity of Voltage.

Unfortunately, instead of using left and right, or in and out, or back and forth, for direction...........we use the plus and minus symbol for the Direction of Current also.
-yes.
This probably comes from the number line in math.
-yes.
This means the when you say positive voltage, it refers to polarity, but when you say positive current, it refers to direction. This confuses many.
-me included.
The other stumbling block for many is the fact that current is voltage in motion and voltage is current at potential rest.
-alright.
Current and voltage are the same thing.............charge.
-alright.
This does not mean that you need 1 C of charge for each volt. Electrons are repulsive and elastic and bouncy.
-alright, but does it mean you need I volt for each C.
Like a compressed gas confined to the conductor surface.
-alright.
We can charge(compress) 1 C of charge to many volts. This elasticity continues with the absence of charge also. The net positive charge left by the absence of electrons is elastic also.

Free electrons are Extremely bouncy. We can charge one tiny electron to millions of volts. How can that be? Pressurize it with a voltage field.
-alright.
Any voltage gradient of a few hundred volts can ionized air and throw a spark a short distance.
-alright.
It doesn't have to be + and - voltage. One electrode could be -100 volts and the other -1500 volts.
-yea alright.
There is positive ion flow within the spark among the air and moisture molecules, but not between the charged objects, unless they are very hot.
-alright.
There is no proton flow(real positive charge flow) between the charged objects, unless they are heated to plasma(the separation of negative and positive charge within the atom with heat) while remaining charged. NOW, protons will flow.
-alright.
We can also induce ionic and electron flow in solutions, not using heat or voltage, but by using chemical pressure.
-yea.
A battery converts chemical pressure into electrical(voltage) pressure.

-alright.

The polarity of the charge carries is irrelevant (in almost all situations). It is the flow of charge that matters -- electrical current is DEFINED as the flow of CHARGE.

- doesn't polarity command in which direction charge will flow.[/QUOTE]

--an answer would help.

 

yes. He was probably referring to the polarity of the charge, not the polarity pressuring the charge.

The math says that the polarity of the current, (neg charge flow or pos charge flow) does not matter, for the equations work the same. The direction might change, but not the amplitudes.

But as explained earlier...that's because the positive flow is simulated with neg flow is the only reason.

Again......if we used REAL proton flow the equations will not work.

Real positive charge is about 2000 times heavier (more mass) than an electron.

How much energy or force does it take to move a marble, compared to moving a bowling ball?

 

yes.

- yes to what.

 

- doesn't polarity command in which direction charge will flow.[/QUOTE]

--an answer would help.

yes to this.

 

the main thing to understand about electricity and electronics is ; it's all about the magic smoke. Do it right and the smoke doesn't get out.

 

http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/static_materials.htm

Here is a link to a site that lists 30 substances that can be used to make static electricity. After you figure out what your shoes are made of and what the floor is made of, you might know whether its a positive difference or a negative difference. that creates a difference. That should clear up...what? What will knowing the answer mean for you?

 

Again......if we used REAL proton flow the equations will not work.

Could you elaborate why the equations would not work?

For example at LHC there are only protons flowing, and they say the continuous current is 0.58A. How are the equations not working? www.lhc-closer.es/taking_a_closer_look_at_lhc/0.beam_current

 

Real positive charge(a proton) is about 2000 times heavier (more mass) than an electron.

The electron and proton are equal in electric charge magnitude.....but not equal in size and mass.

How much energy or force does it take to move a marble, compared to moving a bowling ball?

Look at the magnets that we use in accelerators. The magnets that propel the positive charge are a lot larger and more powerful than the magnets that propel the negative charges.

It takes more energy and force to move a proton to the same distance and speed than that of an electron distance and speed.

 

Real positive charge(a proton) is about 2000 times heavier (more mass) than an electron.

The electron and proton are equal in electric charge magnitude.....but not equal in size and mass.

How much energy or force does it take to move a marble, compared to moving a bowling ball?

Don't reach for mass, in electric equations it has no place.

Look at the magnets that we use in accelerators. The magnets that propel the positive charge are a lot larger and more powerful than the magnets that propel the negative charges.

The magnets are huge because the energy in the beam is huge, not because protons are heavier than electrons.

It takes more energy and force to move a proton to the same distance and speed than that of an electron distance and speed.

Distance in free space? In electric field? It takes the same voltage to give either an electron or a proton the same energy.

 

Well alright then. Enjoy your studies.

I enjoy mine.

 

- doesn't polarity command in which direction charge will flow.

--an answer would help.

yes to this.[/QUOTE]

-would you by chance be able to tell me what charge is it the - polarity pushing and what charge is it the + polarity pushing.

p.s. according to this it shouldn't command which direction charge will flow
" The polarity of the charge carries is irrelevant (in almost all situations). It is the flow of charge that matters -- electrical current is DEFINED as the flow of CHARGE. " - WBahn.
unless I am reading it wrong. I would like to know if I am.

 

Ok, imagine this: you want 1 Coulomb of charge to move from point A to point B.
This can be either accomplished by a bunch of positively charged particles that will physically move from A to B, or a bunch of negatively charged particles which that move from B to A.
Either way point B ends up having 1C more charge than it had before this.

Now you get to choose, without needing to know which of the two types of particles were actually physically moving. Either you say that the current was flowing from A to B (because you like the conventional current point of view), or you say current was flowing from B to A (because you prefer electron current point of view).
Which you choose doesn´t matter, as long as you use it the same way in every aspect of the circuit you are talking about.

 

Ok, Mac, you really seem to be hung up on this.

Take a straight 6 inch piece of bare copper wire. UN-connected and uncharged, a neutral wire laying horizontally in front of you. There is a thin film, shaped like a hairnet, of free electrons, wrapped around the conductor. The electrons are the same distance apart and have the same repulsive force, on the left end of the conductor as the right end and the middle of the conductor.

Now I will bring a -100 V electric field close to the left end of the wire. That field will repel, push and compress that hairnet to the right end of wire.

This will leave a deficit of electrons on the left side and the left side will gain a net positive charge.
A net positive charge always means an electron deficit in electronics. The hairnet will cause an accumulation of electrons on the right end, a negative charge(voltage).

The hairnet will continue to compress, until the compression causes 100 V of charge separation of the net........to counter the external 100 V field. You can side that hairnet up and down the conductor like a shirt sleeve, with the external V field.

Let's change the external source to +100 V. Now the hairnet will be sucked up towards the left end. Because the hairnet(electrons) is attracted to the positive V. This leaves a deficit of electrons on the right end now.

See how is works? Like polarities repel, un-like polarities attract. A negative voltage field will repel electrons and a positive voltage will suck them up.

 

BR-549, what happened to "spin"? You used to say everything depended on "spin".

 

Ok, imagine this: you want 1 Coulomb of charge to move from point A to point B.

Ok.

This can be either accomplished by a bunch of positively charged particles that will physically move from A to B, or a bunch of negatively charged particles which that move from B to A.

True, but only in a physical sense, NOT electronically.

Either way point B ends up having 1C more charge than it had before this.

NOT TRUE!! For the case where we move a coulomb of negative charge from B to A. In this case the positive charge gained was due to a REDUCTION of negative charge. There is now 1 coulomb less charge and mass in object B.

Now you get to choose, without needing to know which of the two types of particles were actually physically moving. Either you say that the current was flowing from A to B (because you like the conventional current point of view), or you say current was flowing from B to A (because you prefer electron current point of view).
Which you choose doesn´t matter, as long as you use it the same way in every aspect of the circuit you are talking about.


It doesn't matter in electronic circuits, because positive flow is simulated with inverted negative flow.

But it takes magnitudes more voltage to move a proton(more mass), than it does for voltage to move an electron. There are other differences in protons. Protons are hard. An electron is like a tennis ball, a proton is like a marble. It is not as elastic or bouncy as an electron is. A proton can not move with the agility of an electron.

In other words, in your A,B example above........it would take much more energy to transfer the positive charge, than to transfer the negative charge.

This is the way I understand this. To each his own.

 

Real positive charge(a proton) is about 2000 times heavier (more mass) than an electron.

The electron and proton are equal in electric charge magnitude.....but not equal in size and mass.

How much energy or force does it take to move a marble, compared to moving a bowling ball?

Look at the magnets that we use in accelerators. The magnets that propel the positive charge are a lot larger and more powerful than the magnets that propel the negative charges.

It takes more energy and force to move a proton to the same distance and speed than that of an electron distance and speed.

A negative charge (electron) accelerated through a 1000 V potential difference will lose 1 keV of kinetic energy. A positive charge (proton) accelerated through that same 1000 V potential difference will gain 1 keV of kinetic energy. Size and mass have nothing to do with it. Now, if you want to talk about the amount by which their respective velocities change, THEN you care about mass (you still don't care about size).

 

It sure does, shortbus, but the question was about charge and electron movement in electronic circuits.

It wasn't about charge structure or how charge converts energy to mass and mass to energy.

Or do you mean spin around the conductor.........it does.....but that's for the advance class.

It would just add confusion at this stage.

 

"A negative charge (electron) accelerated through a 1000 V potential difference will lose 1 keV of kinetic energy."

I would suggest either turning the electron over, or reversing the potential.

That would be deceleration, not acceleration.

I don't want to steal this post from Mac.

 

It is the flow of charge that matters -- electrical current is DEFINED as the flow of CHARGE. " - WBahn.

-if the flow of charge is all that matters; and electrons with their charge attached are all that flows through metal wires (like in BR-549's example of the 6'' bare wire) then wouldn't the electric current (defined as a the flow of charge) equal the electrons flowing because they are all that flows through wires. Protons don't flow through wires, so how could the proton and it's charge flow in the opposite direction of the electron flow if it doesn't move. Does the proton charge get detached from the proton by the force of the electron opposite from it.

 

"A negative charge (electron) accelerated through a 1000 V potential difference will lose 1 keV of kinetic energy."

I would suggest either turning the electron over, or reversing the potential.

That would be deceleration, not acceleration.

I don't want to steal this post from Mac.

-thanks but that was helpful what you said there about deceleration and stuff. Oh and everything else in the other post with the example about the 6'' bare wire and all.