I would if I knew which one was the TRUE one.

First decide if you want to track the flow of charge or the flow of charge carriers. Then be consistent.

 

Ultimately, the definition of a positive or negative electric field defined whether an electron had an attractive or repulsive force.

" Ultimately, the definition of a positive or negative electric field defined whether an electron had an attractive or repulsive force. "
alright so the negative ELECTRIC field that a negative charge takes with it by electrons to the light bulb is what makes the light bulb LIGHT or is it the positive ELECTRIC field that a positive charge takes with it by protons is what makes the light bulb LIGHT.

First, define what "electrical energy current" is?

ELECTRICAL CURRENT ENERGY to me through a wire from a battery is the energy taken to the light bulb to make it LIGHT, which to me is VOLTAGE. Which is why I would call voltage the electrical current. But it's not so. so I am missing something.

First decide if you want to track the flow of charge or the flow of charge carriers. Then be consistent.

Which one is the one that powers the motor or lights the bulb. which is the one that can not come back on the other side of the diode. which is the one through the wire that is responsible for POWER or ENERGY. Which ever one that is the one I want to track.

 

As has been stated several time, in most materials it is electrons that serve as the physical charge carriers (in that they constitute the overwhelming majority of the physical movement within the material). However, the notion of a "negative electric field" is pretty meaningless. In most materials (superconductors not included), something has to create a external electric field which, by definition, results in a force being exerted on any charged particles within the field. This includes both the protons in the nucleus and the electrons in the "cloud". But the protons are tightly bound within the material and so don't experience much movement, while the electrons are relatively free to move within materials that serve as conductors and hence move under the influence of the field, moving charge in the direction opposite the physical motion (since they are moving negative charge in the direction of motion).

 

ELECTRICAL CURRENT ENERGY to me through a wire from a battery is the energy taken to the light bulb to make it LIGHT, which to me is VOLTAGE. Which is why I would call voltage the electrical current. But it's not so. so I am missing something.

So are you equating "electrical current energy" with "voltage"?

 

As has been stated several time, in most materials it is electrons that serve as the physical charge carriers (in that they constitute the overwhelming majority of the physical movement within the material). However, the notion of a "negative electric field" is pretty meaningless. In most materials (superconductors not included), something has to create a external electric field which, by definition, results in a force being exerted on any charged particles within the field. This includes both the protons in the nucleus and the electrons in the "cloud". But the protons are tightly bound within the material and so don't experience much movement, while the electrons are relatively free to move within materials that serve as conductors and hence move under the influence of the field, moving charge in the direction opposite the physical motion (since they are moving negative charge in the direction of motion).

In most materials (superconductors not included), something has to create a external electric field which, by definition, results in a force being exerted on any charged particles within the field.
-alright.
This includes both the protons in the nucleus and the electrons in the "cloud".
-alright.
But the protons are tightly bound within the material and so don't experience much movement,
-alright.
while the electrons are relatively free to move within materials that serve as conductors and hence move under the influence of the field,
-alright.
moving charge in the direction opposite the physical motion
-alright.
(since they are moving negative charge in the direction of motion).[/QUOTE]

-alright. so now what. the electric field moved the electrons right and the " charge " to the left, so now what. does the electrons going right POWER the X or the charge going left POWER the X.

So are you equating "electrical current energy" with "voltage"?

I am sure that is wrong but by everything I read about this is what I am left with thinking. welcome to my confusion.

But the protons are tightly bound within the material and so don't experience much movement, while the electrons are relatively free to move within materials that serve as conductors and hence move under the influence of the field, moving charge in the direction opposite the physical motion (since they are moving negative charge in the direction of motion)

- moving positive charge in the direction opposite the physical motion.
Is that what you mean.

 

OK, I understand your confusion, because I too was young.
Think of current, voltage and resistance (the three fundamentals of electronics) like water.
Imagine a water pipe - This is your wire.
Imagine the water flowing through the pipe - This is the electrons flowing through the wire, the current.
Imagine a tank of water connected to the pipe - This is the voltage. The higher off the ground the tank, the faster the water flows. The higher the voltage, the faster the electrons flow.
Imagine a tap on the pipe - This is your resistance.
Imagine a water wheel - This is the thing you are driving with the water - The Load
So, the higher off the ground the tank, the faster the water flows, the faster the water wheel turns.
Likewise, the higher the voltage, the faster the electron flow (current), the brighter the light.
Turning the tap slowly off, reduces the water flow, and the water wheel slows down.
Likewise, increasing the resistance, reduces current flow, and the light bulb goes dimmer.
I hope this helps you see the connection between Voltage, Current, Resistance, and Load.
Regards, and good luck oh impetuous one.

 

You see the diode symbol as an arrow pointing toward a bar. I see it as resembling a speaker symbol. The bar is the driver of the speaker and it speaks electrons out the horn.
See? A little dyslexia can help.

-alright, but that means that WBahn is right and that on the other side of the diode is electric current coming in the form of positive electric charge out through the bar and then prohibited to return back through the bar and then meaning that the electric current is positive charge coming out of the positive red terminal...even though he hasn't confirmed that yet with a REPLY.

 

"I have Object A and Object B that start out neutrally charged. Then some charge is transferred at a constant range for a period of 2 seconds from one to the other such that Object A has a charge of -6 coulombs and Object B has a charge of +6 coulombs. During the period that charge of flowing, what was the current and in what direction did it flow? The answer is simple. In 2 s, 6 C of charge flowed from Object A to Object B, thus the current was three coulombs/second from A to B and since one coulomb/second is defined as one ampere, this is the same as saying that a current of 3 A flowed from A to B. This is equivalent to saying that we had a current from B to A of -3 A."


You might want to re-think that. It is true(because of the per second definition) that the current is 3 amps.

But the charge flow duration was 2 seconds at 3 amps. and therefor 6 C of charge were transferred.

3 amps. flow the first sec. and 3 amps. flowed the second sec.

I can explain to you any charge transfer, using real current, without any inconsistencies.

You can only simulate positive flow, AND you have to use negative flow to simulate it.

This is because positive charge will not flow. And if it did, you would need new equations to measure it.

One volt of any polarity, would not move as many positive charges as it would negative charges.

If you experiment, and try and move 1 C of positive charge, it will not follow ohm's law.

Remember, the positive voltages in our circuits is because of negative flow, not real positive flow.

This is the ONLY reason your math works for positive flow.

Positive flow never happens.

 

You can only simulate positive flow, AND you have to use negative flow to simulate it (...)
And if it did, you would need new equations to measure it. One volt of any polarity, would not move as many positive charges as it would negative charges. If you experiment, and try and move 1 C of positive charge, it will not follow ohm's law.

Sorry, what? It seems to me that you think there are no physical examples of positive charge flowing?
Can´t I have a bucket of electrolyte with only positive ions, and push those ions around to form electric current? Am I not allowed to have positronsm, or positively charged nuclei (aka lacking a few electrons)?

This is because positive charge will not flow.

That is true only in metals.

 

"
Remember, the positive voltages in our circuits is because of negative flow, not real positive flow.

This is the ONLY reason your math works for positive flow.

Positive flow never happens.[/QUOTE] "
-This part right here I see. All this positive voltage business. Does this mean that the negative voltage that moves the negative electron flow is the originator of positive electric charge flow and by extension maintaining the positive voltage amount.
p.s. I didn't put that example WBahn did.

Sorry, what? It seems to me that you think there are no physical examples of positive charge flowing?
Can´t I have a bucket of electrolyte with only positive ions, and push those ions around to form electric current? Am I not allowed to have positronsm, or positively charged nuclei (aka lacking a few electrons)?
That is true only in metals.

-Yes but that's what we are talking about. my example is of a DC circuit through a METAL WIRE.

 

That would be ionic flow, not true charge flow.

You can certainly have positive charge flow. Plasma for instance. I try to stay with electronics on this particular forum.

And in the future, plasma might be quite common in electronics.

 

None of the above, or rather, both A and B. For every electron that goes negative to positive there is a positive charge going positive to negative.

 

-Yes but that's what we are talking about. my example is of a DC circuit through a METAL WIRE.

Well you should have said so. And you shouldn´t have used an example of a semiconductor diode, since there you have both the flow of electrons with negative charge, and holes which represent positive charge.

Electrical current is movement of charge from one point to another, and it doesn´t care if the charge carriers are electrons or ions, protons or whatever. That is why you have the two fundamental views:
one is the electron flow, since electrons are the charge carrier 99.9% of the time then then the direction of flow of electrons should be the way the current flows
the second one is the conventional flow, which has been used throughout the history, because it doesn´t matter as long as you use it consistently.

So if we were using the charge flow direction, instead of the ambiguous current flow direction there would be no confusion and no arguments.

 

None of the above, or rather, both A and B. For every electron that goes negative to positive there is a positive charge going positive to negative.

Do you have anything to add to this:

Remember, the positive voltages in our circuits is because of negative flow, not real positive flow.

This is the ONLY reason your math works for positive flow.

Positive flow never happens.[/QUOTE] "
-This part right here I see. All this positive voltage business. Does this mean that the negative voltage that moves the negative electron flow is the originator of positive electric charge flow and by extension maintaining the positive voltage amount.

yes or no to last question would be nice.

p.s. yea i'm trying to change the poll answers to something different but the site will not allow me.

Well you should have said so. And you shouldn´t have used an example of a semiconductor diode, since there you have both the flow of electrons with negative charge, and holes which represent positive charge.

Electrical current is movement of charge from one point to another, and it doesn´t care if the charge carriers are electrons or ions, protons or whatever. That is why you have the two fundamental views:
one is the electron flow, since electrons are the charge carrier 99.9% of the time then then the direction of flow of electrons should be the way the current flows
the second one is the conventional flow, which has been used throughout the history, because it doesn´t matter as long as you use it consistently.

So if we were using the charge flow direction, instead of the ambiguous current flow direction there would be no confusion and no arguments.

-I thought I did when I kept writing "DC circuit through a metal wire" in my replies or extension questions.
Those examples of diodes were from AAC I had nothing else available. I see those diodes all the time in DC circuits .

 

Mac, if you are going to study this formally, you will need to learn to work will conventional flow.

Just keep the right polarity and units for the math, you'll be ok.

If this is for personal and hobby interest, you can ignore it.

But be aware that most are taught conventional flow. Text books, app. notes and research all use conv. flow.

It's the convention now.

Just remember that the ampere standard kept in paris will not work with ohm's law.

Because that standard doesn't specify negative charge.

Current has to remain negative for our equations to work.

The only charge carrier in current is the electron.

Therefore............................a positive charge is made by removing electrons.

 

Look at this primitive description of electricity I wrote.
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/ohms-law-for-noobies-or-the-amp-hour-fallacy.69757/

From that you will understand that positive and negative voltages are the result of more or less concentration of electrons. A negative voltage means a bunch of electrons are piled up there compared to someplace else and a positive voltage just means that particular point has less electrons than where you placed the other end of your volt meter. All voltages are a voltage compared to some other place.

With conventional flow and a positive power supply rail at the top of the page, all it means is that the positive rail sucks and electrons are moving from the bottom of the page to the top of the page. Conventional flow makes the math easier because it's all positive numbers, but it's only positive relative to the place called, "common" on the bottom of the page.

I did this for 50 years without thinking about which way the "charge" is moving because it's sufficient to think about how the electrons are moving. At one time, I called the carriers plusatrons and minusatrons as if they are all imaginary particles that can magically travel through a solid. Guess what? It worked. I became able to understand circuits, no matter which convention the original designer used. This is because I'm a pragmatist. I only care how the circuit works or how to make it work. I don't care if Ben Franklin was wrong or somebody else invented Ohm's Law or the Vikings got to America before Christopher Columbus. You can diagnose and design circuits for a long time without thinking about which way the charge is flowing. Just pick a model and use it.

 

Do you have anything to add to this:

Remember, the positive voltages in our circuits is because of negative flow, not real positive flow.

This is the ONLY reason your math works for positive flow.

Positive flow never happens.

"
-This part right here I see. All this positive voltage business. Does this mean that the negative voltage that moves the negative electron flow is the originator of positive electric charge flow and by extension maintaining the positive voltage amount.

yes or no to last question would be nice.

p.s. yea i'm trying to change the poll answers to something different but the site will not allow me.[/QUOTE]

The polarity of the charge carries is irrelevant (in almost all situations). It is the flow of charge that matters -- electrical current is DEFINED as the flow of CHARGE.

 

Look at this primitive description of electricity I wrote.
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/ohms-law-for-noobies-or-the-amp-hour-fallacy.69757/

From that you will understand that positive and negative voltages are the result of more or less concentration of electrons. A negative voltage means a bunch of electrons are piled up there compared to someplace else and a positive voltage just means that particular point has less electrons than where you placed the other end of your volt meter. All voltages are a voltage compared to some other place.

With conventional flow and a positive power supply rail at the top of the page, all it means is that the positive rail sucks and electrons are moving from the bottom of the page to the top of the page. Conventional flow makes the math easier because it's all positive numbers, but it's only positive relative to the place called, "common" on the bottom of the page.

I did this for 50 years without thinking about which way the "charge" is moving because it's sufficient to think about how the electrons are moving. At one time, I called the carriers plusatrons and minusatrons as if they are all imaginary particles that can magically travel through a solid. Guess what? It worked. I became able to understand circuits, no matter which convention the original designer used. This is because I'm a pragmatist. I only care how the circuit works or how to make it work. I don't care if Ben Franklin was wrong or somebody else invented Ohm's Law or the Vikings got to America before Christopher Columbus. You can diagnose and design circuits for a long time without thinking about which way the charge is flowing. Just pick a model and use it.

-" It's the difference in concentration that makes voltage, and voltage makes sparks. " would that be the negative voltage or positive voltage we were talking about.

p.s. I read your link.

"
-This part right here I see. All this positive voltage business. Does this mean that the negative voltage that moves the negative electron flow is the originator of positive electric charge flow and by extension maintaining the positive voltage amount.

yes or no to last question would be nice.

p.s. yea i'm trying to change the poll answers to something different but the site will not allow me.

The polarity of the charge carries is irrelevant (in almost all situations). It is the flow of charge that matters -- electrical current is DEFINED as the flow of CHARGE.[/QUOTE]
- doesn't polarity command in which direction charge will flow.

 

-" It's the difference in concentration that makes voltage, and voltage makes sparks. " would that be the negative voltage or positive voltage we were talking about.

It doesn't bleeping matter! One side or the other is positive or negative compared to the other side. Pick one. There are several pairs of materials that create static electricity. One of them will come up lacking electrons and the other will come up with the surplus stolen from the first one. The only thing that matters is a difference in concentration. Pick one and its positive. Pick the other one and it's negative. Why are you asking me to pick one? I said in the link that I don't know. It's different for each of several pairs of materials.

You pick one, then argue that it's wrong...or argue that its right...or argue that it's positive...or argue that it's negative.
Just keep asking whether it's the positive or negative difference in voltages that makes a difference in voltages. You'll get to the answer eventually.

 

One of the problems is the symbols we use in math to describe this current movement.

We use the plus sign and the minus sign to indicate the Polarity of Voltage.

Unfortunately, instead of using left and right, or in and out, or back and forth, for direction...........we use the plus and minus symbol for the Direction of Current also.

This probably comes from the number line in math.

This means the when you say positive voltage, it refers to polarity, but when you say positive current, it refers to direction. This confuses many.

The other stumbling block for many is the fact that current is voltage in motion and voltage is current at potential rest.

Current and voltage are the same thing.............charge.

This does not mean that you need 1 C of charge for each volt. Electrons are repulsive and elastic and bouncy.

Like a compressed gas confined to the conductor surface.

We can charge(compress) 1 C of charge to many volts. This elasticity continues with the absence of charge also. The net positive charge left by the absence of electrons is elastic also.

Free electrons are Extremely bouncy. We can charge one tiny electron to millions of volts. How can that be? Pressurize it with a voltage field.

Any voltage gradient of a few hundred volts can ionized air and throw a spark a short distance.

It doesn't have to be + and - voltage. One electrode could be -100 volts and the other -1500 volts.

There is positive ion flow within the spark among the air and moisture molecules, but not between the charged objects, unless they are very hot.

There is no proton flow(real positive charge flow) between the charged objects, unless they are heated to plasma(the separation of negative and positive charge within the atom with heat) while remaining charged. NOW, protons will flow.

We can also induce ionic and electron flow in solutions, not using heat or voltage, but by using chemical pressure.

A battery converts chemical pressure into electrical(voltage) pressure.