Looking to take K-Type EGT mV input and convert the signal to Volts. After conversion I would like to program a mcp2515 to transmit over canbus at .5 or 1.0 meg speed. I have only at the moment the Can Module stated and the canbus addresses I need to send to.

This is my first post ever and also project. NOOB

By trade I am a engine calibrator and this is something I just found recently as even being a possibility. I look forward to trying new to me things

Thanks in advance

 

You could look at these sites for some info...
Arduino CAN bus...
https://www.cooking-hacks.com/docum...orial-for-arduino-raspberry-pi-intel-galileo/

Arduino Thermocouple...
https://learn.adafruit.com/thermocouple/using-a-thermocouple

Your project is a pretty neat way to start learning.

 

Dendad I appreciate the insight and links. I have been searching here and there for quite some time. I think maybe I forget the more is less when searching theory on occasion.

I had hoped this wasn't something too advanced for a first project. I am going to make a ethanol analyzer today and a pair of knock ears to play with on the dyno. But this is just copying others work.

Regardless should be fun and although all this is quite new to me I am pretty sharp in my profession so hopefully I have a opportunity to help someone with something at some point.

Thanks Again!!

 

There are lots of sites to help learn Arduinos. Abd after that, there are many more powerful boards to try if your interest goes that way. But Arduino is easy and cheap way to start. And a lot of fun too
Maybe buy an Arduino Starter Kit?
I wish you well on this adventure.

 

When I have looked at starter kits I have only seen very basic ones that don't really interest me as far as the project is concerned. ie a blinking led. Maybe its best to start with something at this level or maybe I am not looking in the right places. Either way I will search a little more for others.

Attached is what I have to work with ATM

Thanks again for the support

 

The UNO and the Pro are pretty similar, just packaging differences mainly.
So all you need is a thermocouple board.
But first try to get some CAN messages running. I find the I2C LCD boards worth getting. It is handy to have a local display if even just for debugging.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/IIC-I2C...310308?hash=item41cadc5024:g:WNYAAOSw2kZZbd7C
Google "ask manual " for a reasonable book to show you how to start if you are just new, otherwise those links earlier may be most of what you need.

 

Awesome!!!

 

Looking to take K-Type EGT mV input and convert the signal to Volts. After conversion I would like to program a mcp2515 to transmit over canbus at .5 or 1.0 meg speed. I have only at the moment the Can Module stated and the canbus addresses I need to send to.

This is my first post ever and also project. NOOB

By trade I am a engine calibrator and this is something I just found recently as even being a possibility. I look forward to trying new to me things

Thanks in advance

There are a couple of things about CAN that you should know.

1. Datarate and cable distance trade off against each other. 1 MBPS can only be achieved with relatively short cable lengths.
2. All the nodes in a CAN network need accurate crystal clocks to run at high datarates.
3. CAN transceivers make your life ever so much easier.

There is a whole lot more about configuring a CAN network and what protocols you might want to layer on top of CAN.

 

Thanks for the reply Papabravo. Although I know zero about can programing whatsoever, the experience I currently have is purely limited to wiring(which I know can be tricky, yet I have not experienced a issue yet) and reverse engineering OEM canbus transmits in order to do factory replacement computers while not to disturb the other modules.

The latter I mentioned I will confess that my learning curve while doing this project was my limitations tested. Like most things I dove 2 feet first and the cost of time which reflected income as well as my lack of patience resulted in a 3 years ordeal before completion. While I watched my competitors pass me as I was standing still loosing major market share in the meantime. At the time I was unsure where to get help and very discouraged. Yet I did follow through to completion.

I will most certainly look into everything mentioned. I will say that in order for me to broadcast on all platforms it will require using 1meg speeds. So any quirks that may exist, I need to learn. There are products I use already, however they are quite overpriced for the technology and I have no intentions of copying others devices or intellectual property.

Thanks Again

 

Thanks for the reply Papabravo. Although I know zero about can programing whatsoever, the experience I currently have is purely limited to wiring(which I know can be tricky, yet I have not experienced a issue yet) and reverse engineering OEM canbus transmits in order to do factory replacement computers while not to disturb the other modules.

The latter I mentioned I will confess that my learning curve while doing this project was my limitations tested. Like most things I dove 2 feet first and the cost of time which reflected income as well as my lack of patience resulted in a 3 years ordeal before completion. While I watched my competitors pass me as I was standing still loosing major market share in the meantime. At the time I was unsure where to get help and very discouraged. Yet I did follow through to completion.

I will most certainly look into everything mentioned. I will say that in order for me to broadcast on all platforms it will require using 1meg speeds. So any quirks that may exist, I need to learn. There are products I use already, however they are quite overpriced for the technology and I have no intentions of copying others devices or intellectual property.

Thanks Again

Ask whatever questions you want about CAN and how to use it. I will try to answer them as best I can.

 

That'll be a great help.

Out of curiosity whats your back ground with can? Not many seem to have a reason to know much in that field.

Thank you for the support.

 

While I have no working knowledge of canbus beyond the definition and its use I am curious as to your hardware with a focus on the thermocouple you plan to use. I understand K Thermocouple but was wondering if you have one picked out and your plans to get the actual EGT. Were you planning to just measure surface temperature of an exhaust manifold or actually place your thermocouple in the exhaust gas path? Here is why I ask. Earlier in the thread The AD595 interface chip was mentioned. When using this temperature transmitter there is a consideration in that the MAX6675 and MAX31855 thermocouple amplifiers are not compatible with grounded thermocouples. If you plan to use a sheathed thermocouple similar to those pictured below:


these thermocouples come in grounded and ungrounded configurations meaning the actual thermocouple junction is either grounded to the sheath or not grounded to the sheath. If the thermocouple junction is an open type and you plan to surface mount on the exhaust manifold there is a good possibility you will have problems using the AD 595 as an interface chip. Also, knowing the range of a Type K thermocouple what are the minimum and maximum temperatures you would expect to see?

Ron

 

That'll be a great help.

Out of curiosity whats your back ground with can? Not many seem to have a reason to know much in that field.

Thank you for the support.

Working for Allen-Bradley in the early 1990's we adapted the Bosh specification and developed an industrial network based on CAN technology called Device-Net which became Allen-Bradley's fist open network protocol. We built a small company on top of that opportunity.

 

While I have no working knowledge of canbus beyond the definition and its use I am curious as to your hardware with a focus on the thermocouple you plan to use. I understand K Thermocouple but was wondering if you have one picked out and your plans to get the actual EGT. Were you planning to just measure surface temperature of an exhaust manifold or actually place your thermocouple in the exhaust gas path? Here is why I ask. Earlier in the thread The AD595 interface chip was mentioned. When using this temperature transmitter there is a consideration in that the MAX6675 and MAX31855 thermocouple amplifiers are not compatible with grounded thermocouples. If you plan to use a sheathed thermocouple similar to those pictured below:
View attachment 138720

these thermocouples come in grounded and ungrounded configurations meaning the actual thermocouple junction is either grounded to the sheath or not grounded to the sheath. If the thermocouple junction is an open type and you plan to surface mount on the exhaust manifold there is a good possibility you will have problems using the AD 595 as an interface chip. Also, knowing the range of a Type K thermocouple what are the minimum and maximum temperatures you would expect to see?

Ron

My purposes for use require precision and extreme care during installation. While their function may aid in minor fueling and ignition tweaks to balance indifferances from one cylinder to another, the main focus is individual cylinder temperature differential data and injector shut down in the event of overtemp.

In a motorsports vehicle that is competing I will allow the cylinder to reactivate once desired temp is achieved and continue to let it attempt to eat itself, however the driver is aware of the situation and can make the decision to continue to risk the engine or throw in the towel. Generally up to 3 cycles of cut/activate. Ultimately the actions taken are my call with some input from the guy with the check book.

My failsafes embedded into the tune are not ones that are seen in OEM applications. My focus is not only protecting my customers investment as well as my time but also their safety. The implementation of the datas intended purpose is to have as much control over the very fine balancing act taken place when attempting to extract as much power from an engine possible. It is not uncommon for me to have 200-300 whp per cylinder (8-1200whp 4cyl to 3k plus 8cyl or more). EGT will often plateau at approximately 1800F and hold, which is although extreme, also manageable. At these temperatures one mechanical error, electrical issue, fuel quality change or tuning mistake and the motor is done within a few revolutions.

An gas or alcohol engine is notably happier on the verge of meltdown than it is in either of the opposing directions. One will yield low power and skyrocketing EGT due to excess fuel/low ignition timing while the other direction will either suffer slow deterioration of the piston due to too much ignition advance or extreme temperatures from running too lean causing meltdown.

The sensors have 2 distinct metals used. One in each of the leads CHROMEL and ALUMEL. They cannot have a connection between them without spending several hundreds of dollars on it. Hence the additional desire for can streamed data. This way only 2 wires need to be run to the ECU, not number of cyl X 2 + PWR/GND. Weight is also a factor in the equation.

They must each be located exactly the identical distance from the cylinder head or the data is useless. All need to be equal in depth with the center of the exhaust port being optimal.

Generally exhaust requires closed tip for longevity, while when using for air temp open is preferred. In some cases as well as budgets, very high dollar lab grade open tips will be used in the exhaust with only the turbine wheel(if applicable) exposed to possible damage.

Happy to explain anything I can.

EGT Probe Specifications:
• Type K Thermocouple
• -148°F to 2372°F range (-100°C to 1300°C)
• Special Limits of Error accuracy (+/- 0.4% of reading)
• Probe diameter 1/4 or 1/8 inch
• Max tip insertion depth = 1.5 inch
• Inconel 600 protective sheathing for longevity at high temperatures
• Sheath Wall Thickness 0.030" (.76 mm), MgO insulated
• Stainless steel over-braid cable with FEP insulated conductors; 6 foot
• Response time constant: 150 milliseconds
Compression Fitting (included):
• 316 Stainless steel
• Adjustable
• 1/8 or 1/16 NPT thread

 

Working for Allen-Bradley in the early 1990's we adapted the Bosh specification and developed an industrial network based on CAN technology called Device-Net which became Allen-Bradley's fist open network protocol. We built a small company on top of that opportunity.

Very cool.

Was this at all part of the first Benz bosch system (first ever can bus, also first fiber optic) dubbed MOST?

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation, now I understand where this needs to go. My initial thoughts were just an engine test stand, not an engine in the car in an actual race. I understand the thermocouples and now see your need for canbus. Thanks for sharing all of that. Really cool stuff and like you said, some big bucks in those engines. My motor head days were during the 60s and looking at today's racing systems it just unbelievable.

Thanks Again
Ron

 

Ron,

Your exactly correct. The technology stalled for so long from the 60's to the 90's due to emmisions and developing technology. The Japanese made major moves in the early 90's and fell off quite a bit since. The rest of the world however has really made the sport a game changer. The last 5 years alone are the most advancements ever. Expectations of power output and its ability to function has doubled since 2010. 500whp was FAST. 10.9 1/4 was FAST. All in full weight street cars. Now we have cars in the 7's driving to the track modified. 9.7 cars off the showroom floor are becoming the norm. Power management and ECU technology is driving all of it. The fact that the smallest class legal tire is a 275 which was suppose to be a crippling factor has been overcome with 3.9x 1/8 mile runs. Its crazy.

Sorry for the babble.

Anyhow this is one of many can comm micro controllers that I have an interest in doing. Whats out there falls into a couple of different categories at the moment:
Too Expensive
Junk
Not Programmable and kept proprietary to a particular ECU

Following up this I would like to visit the Power Distribution Module side of the puzzle.

 

Post back on how things progress for you with this project. During races it is amazing the data the crew is getting from the car, really neat stuff. My career involved quite a bit of data acquisition and recording but nothing using canbus or anything automotive.

Ron

 

Very cool.

Was this at all part of the first Benz bosch system (first ever can bus, also first fiber optic) dubbed MOST?

No. the Bosch spec dealt with an on vehicle network and lacked a useful structure for higher layer protocols. We added the transceiver and higher layer protocols to make DeviceNet. The cable plant could be:

1. 500 meters at 125 KBPS
2. 250 meters at 250 KBPS
3. 100 meters at 500 KBPS

with or without opto isolators on each end. We never attempted 1.0 MBPS because with optos on both ends we could only get a maximum cable length of -20 meters. That doesn't work to well in this universe.

 

No. the Bosch spec dealt with an on vehicle network and lacked a useful structure for higher layer protocols. We added the transceiver and higher layer protocols to make DeviceNet. The cable plant could be:

1. 500 meters at 125 KBPS
2. 250 meters at 250 KBPS
3. 100 meters at 500 KBPS

with or without opto isolators on each end. We never attempted 1.0 MBPS because with optos on both ends we could only get a maximum cable length of -20 meters. That doesn't work to well in this universe.

20 meters is way farther than anything automotive unless you are doing a bus or mobile home lol