DS1102E digital noise on display waveform

Thread Starter

MikeyChris

Joined Mar 10, 2018
31
Hello. I just bought a Rigol DS1102E 100Mhz dual trace scope for a great price ($299 new, on eBay TEquipment.net) and am very happy with the "bang for the buck". The only downside I have seen so far is that there is about 20mV of noise riding on the displayed waveform. It appears to be random asynchronous digital noise, i.e. when magnified the noise appears to be moving pulses of very small amplitude. I have watched several videos that feature this scope, and there seems to be this same noise in those videos, but the noise appears to be only about half the amount I am seeing. Of course this is a very subjective judgement on my part - allowing for the resolution of the video, etc. Be that as it may, I was wondering if any of you guys that own this scope (or have used one of them) has any comments on the display noise. It doesn't adversely affect what I do (I am a retired engineer who has decided to get back into the hobby of electronics tinkering - blame it on Arduino!). Thanx for your comments. The pic below shows the noise, albeit not as sever as it appears in "real life".
Noise.jpg
 

MrChips

Joined Oct 2, 2009
30,706
In order to make a proper judgement call, we need to know more about your setup and what you are measuring.

What kind of probe are you using?
Does the probe have a x1 and x10 setting?
What is the probe setting?
Does the probe have a grounding clip?
Where is the grounding clip connected?

What is the source of the signal you are measuring?
Is the BW Limit option on the input channel ON or OFF?
What happens if you change the BW limit to ON?

Try this test.
With no signal connect to the probe, connect the grounding clip to the probe tip.
Turn your CH1 VOLTS/DIV to the lowest setting in order to measure the smallest amplitude.
Show us what the screen trace looks like.
 

Danko

Joined Nov 22, 2017
1,829
This noise becomes from high frequency environmental electromagnetic waves.
Your oscilloscope (100MHz) is very sensitive to them.
 

Thread Starter

MikeyChris

Joined Mar 10, 2018
31
This noise becomes from high frequency environmental electromagnetic waves.
Your oscilloscope (100MHz) is very sensitive to them.
I considered that, but moved the scope to several different locations (in my house, this is a residential area) and the noise looked the same. As I initially wrote, I watched some YouTube videos and there does seem to be the same noise on this model scope in those videos (just not as severe). I have used 100Mhz analog scope that did not have this issue (even in high noise environments). So I was thinking this may be a byproduct of Digital Scopes. Also, I realize this is only a $300 instrument and I can't expect it to perform like the $3000 scopes I used at work.

In order to make a proper judgement call, we need to know more about your setup and what you are measuring.

What kind of probe are you using?
Does the probe have a x1 and x10 setting?
What is the probe setting?
Does the probe have a grounding clip?
Where is the grounding clip connected?

What is the source of the signal you are measuring?
Is the BW Limit option on the input channel ON or OFF?
What happens if you change the BW limit to ON?

Try this test.
With no signal connect to the probe, connect the grounding clip to the probe tip.
Turn your CH1 VOLTS/DIV to the lowest setting in order to measure the smallest amplitude.
Show us what the screen trace looks like.
Thanx for the reply. I was just seeking comments from other users of this scope. I wasn't really expecting anyone to try to diagnose the issue, mainly just trying to see what is typical. However, the waveform I posted was taken with the probe in 10X attenuation mode, the probe has a short (<6") ground lead that is attached to the ground lug next to the CAL test point on the scope, I was measuring the scope's CAL signal (but have also measured a function generator signal and it shows same noise), BW limit was OFF (I also tried with it ON and it was slightly improved, but not much). With the probe ground lead attached to the probe tip (10X mode) there appears to white noise with random periodic spikes. Since this is basically an antenna, as I move the probe around in space, there is a small change in noise level.
All that said, I was hoping someone that has experience using this scope would comment on this because it is not mentioned in any of the videos (not even reviews on YouTube, and the noise is clearly in the videos). Thanx again!
 
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jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,087
I have the DS1054Z that has been updated;
upload_2018-3-11_11-41-18.png

You get used to that "noise." For the price and triggers, it is worth it. Let me add that my Tek TDS210 also shows "noise" on the horizontal sweep. LED and fluorescent lamps seem to add to it.
 

Danko

Joined Nov 22, 2017
1,829
Probe 1:10.
1. CAL signal.
2. Noise of CAL signal magnified by time and amplitude.
3. Tip of probe shorted on ground.
4. Cable of probe removed from oscilloscope.
noise-1.png noise-2.png noise-3.png noise-4.png
 

Thread Starter

MikeyChris

Joined Mar 10, 2018
31
I have the DS1054Z that has been updated;
View attachment 148079

You get used to that "noise." For the price and triggers, it is worth it. Let me add that my Tek TDS210 also shows "noise" on the horizontal sweep. LED and fluorescent lamps seem to add to it.
Thanx! That is what I was curious about. Yours looks a bit cleaner, but there does seem to be some artifacts there. I appreciate your effort!
Mikey

Probe 1:10.
1. CAL signal.
2. Noise of CAL signal magnified by time and amplitude.
3. Tip of probe shorted on ground.
4. Cable of probe removed from oscilloscope.
View attachment 148080 View attachment 148081 View attachment 148082 View attachment 148084
Thanx for doing the test. It appears my initial appraisal was correct - you get what you pay for! I have NO complaint. My first scope was a$100 Heathkit that I had to assemble and had 5Mhz BW. This Rigol is a fantastic deal at $299.

Probe 1:10.
1. CAL signal.
2. Noise of CAL signal magnified by time and amplitude.
3. Tip of probe shorted on ground.
4. Cable of probe removed from oscilloscope.
View attachment 148080 View attachment 148081 View attachment 148082 View attachment 148084
I just noticed that your "noise" and mine are somewhat different. Although similar in amplitude, when I expand my trace out, my "noise" seems more "spikey" rather than sinusoidal (I guess there is a more technical term than spikey, but mine looke more like pulses than sine waves). Interesting. Perhaps the noise is external (ambient) rather than internally generated, making it more of a shielding issue.
 
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Danko

Joined Nov 22, 2017
1,829
I just noticed that your "noise" and mine are somewhat different. Although similar in amplitude, when I expand my trace out, my "noise" seems more "spikey" rather than sinusoidal (I guess there is a more technical term than spikey, but mine looke more like pulses than sine waves). Interesting. Perhaps the noise is external (ambient) rather than internally generated, making it more of a shielding issue.
It (sinusoidal) may be because my oscilloscope OWON VDS3102L has sample rate 1GS/s and software interpolation of signal between readings.
And on picture 2 in post #8 you can see frequency of VHF station 70.638MHz - external "noise".
 
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MrChips

Joined Oct 2, 2009
30,706
Thanx for doing the test. It appears my initial appraisal was correct - you get what you pay for! I have NO complaint. My first scope was a$100 Heathkit that I had to assemble and had 5Mhz BW. This Rigol is a fantastic deal at $299.
For $299 and for what you plan to do with that oscilloscope, it will be fine.

So what's your first project you are going to tackle? Start a new thread under The Projects Forum for that.
 

spinnaker

Joined Oct 29, 2009
7,830
As I recall I would see similar noise on my old Rigol DS1102E. Maybe not as much as yours but I am going from memory. Here is my new Siglent 1020X-E


upload_2018-3-11_20-38-27.png

You can see a bit of noise there too. This is 1V per division. Strange it doesn't seem to show up on the scope itself only in the PC software.

Here is a shot of the "virtual panel". Pretty amazing that it is very close to exact what appears on the scope screen.

upload_2018-3-11_20-42-16.png
 

Wuerstchenhund

Joined Aug 31, 2017
189
Hello. I just bought a Rigol DS1102E 100Mhz dual trace scope for a great price ($299 new, on eBay TEquipment.net) and am very happy with the "bang for the buck". The only downside I have seen so far is that there is about 20mV of noise riding on the displayed waveform. It appears to be random asynchronous digital noise, i.e. when magnified the noise appears to be moving pulses of very small amplitude. I have watched several videos that feature this scope, and there seems to be this same noise in those videos, but the noise appears to be only about half the amount I am seeing.
This is normal. There's always a certain amount of noise depending on the measurement setup, and because the DS1102E only has a very low-res display the optical vertical resolution is so small that even small noise amounts show up as comparatively thick points. It's a trait the DS1102E shares with other scopes that use similar very low-res LCDs, like some handheld scopes or some of the mentioned Tek TDS200 Series antiques. It's less pronounced on scopes with a higher vertical screen resolution.

BTW, I don't want to be a downer but I don't think $299 is a particular good price for the old DS1102E, more to the contrary. Don't get me wrong, it was a good beginner's scope when it came out in 2009 but that is no longer true in 2018, mostly because it's awfully slow and only offers very basic functionality and miniscule memory (no serial decode, and FFT is a bad joke), and it comes with a shoddy small low-res display that's awful to read. For $50 more you could have got the Rigol DS1054z, which not only is a lot faster, offers more functionality including more sample memory and optional serial decode as well as a better display, it's also a 4ch scope which can be unlocked via a free tool (google 'Riglol") you can unlock it to 100MHz and all options for free. If you're really cash-strapped then you can sometimes still find the Siglent SDS1102CML for around $270 or so which is like a DS1102E but with a better display, but frankly unless you're totally blank I'd rather spent the $349 and get the DS1054z. It's a no-brainer, especially if you work with digital stuff like Arduino.

Just sayin'
 
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