Creating Magnetic Charge on Skin / Alternatives to Suction

Thread Starter

icydash

Joined Jan 14, 2009
124
Hi,

I'm trying to create a medical device that is able to pull on skin without using suction or affixing anything to the skin.

My first thought is to use magnetism of some kind. More specifically, I'm wondering if it's possible to attach two electrodes to my skin, about an inch apart from one another, and somehow flow current between the two so that that length of skin builds up sufficient magnetic charge or a sufficient magnetic field to be attracted to a nearby magnet that's like an inch away. Then I can turn on and off the current, in order to cause my skin to be selectively pulled towards the magnet. I don't really know anything about magnetism, but is something like this even feasible? If so, what would the current signal have to look like (e.g., in terms of magnitude, frequency, etc.)?

Are there other options you can think of?

Thanks in advance!
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
16,832
I don’t see any way to do what you describe. You can pass small currents through your tissues, but nowhere near enough to produce forces similar to cupping. A small current will be felt and cause involuntary muscle contractions. See TENS. And two electrodes is not that much different than a cup anyway.
 

jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,088
Hi,

I'm trying to create a medical device that is able to pull on skin without using suction or affixing anything to the skin.

My first thought is to use magnetism of some kind. More specifically, I'm wondering if it's possible to attach two electrodes to my skin, about an inch apart from one another, and somehow flow current between the two so that that length of skin builds up sufficient magnetic charge or a sufficient magnetic field to be attracted to a nearby magnet that's like an inch away. Then I can turn on and off the current, in order to cause my skin to be selectively pulled towards the magnet. I don't really know anything about magnetism, but is something like this even feasible? If so, what would the current signal have to look like (e.g., in terms of magnitude, frequency, etc.)?
Aren't the underlined words inconsistent?

When you say "skin" do you mean skin and only skin (https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/picture-of-the-skin#1 ) or skin and underlying tissues? Will it be limited to a specific anatomical location? That is, scalp, neck, and belly skin may be different. Why do you want to pull on skin, whatever you mean by that?

I agree that providing enough current to create a strong enough magnetic field is not likely to work.
 

Thread Starter

icydash

Joined Jan 14, 2009
124
Aren't the underlined words inconsistent?

When you say "skin" do you mean skin and only skin (https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/picture-of-the-skin#1 ) or skin and underlying tissues? Will it be limited to a specific anatomical location? That is, scalp, neck, and belly skin may be different. Why do you want to pull on skin, whatever you mean by that?

I agree that providing enough current to create a strong enough magnetic field is not likely to work.
I probably could have been clearer - I'm trying not to have to affix anything to the part of the skin that's being pulled. With the electromagnetic approach, the electrodes would be on either side of the skin actually being pulled (i.e., the skin being pulled would be the length of skin between the electrodes), but not directly contacting that length of skin itself.

Ideally it would only pull the epidermis and maybe the dermis, but not much more of the underlying tissue. Though if it pulls more of the underlying tissue a little bit that would be okay.

It will not be limited to any specific anatomical location. The goal is to create a medical instrument capable of being used in any location. But don't let that stop the idea flow - if you have an idea for something that would only work at a specific anatomical location, I'd still like to know about it.

Let's just say that there are a lot of medical reasons why it might be advantageous to pull on skin, but I can't give more detail for various confidentiality reasons.

Tell us why suction is not acceptable. Maybe that will trigger an idea. But I doubt it will be an electronic.
Suction is not acceptable for two reasons - (1) suction is already being used for this type of medical application and I'm trying to create something new, and (2) suction is hard to finely tune/control, and it often damages the skin/surrounding tissue because it's too aggressive.

Thanks everyone!
 

Alec_t

Joined Sep 17, 2013
11,897
suction is hard to finely tune/control, and it often damages the skin/surrounding tissue because it's too aggressive.
In that case I think I'd be developing better ways of controlling suction. The electro/magnetic approach is a non-starter in my opinion.
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
16,832
... and (2) suction is hard to finely tune/control, and it often damages the skin/surrounding tissue because it's too aggressive.
Suction is not hard to control at all - you just need an adjustable vacuum and that's well-established technology. You can also control the contact area around the vacuum chamber by shape, wall width, radius of curvature and so on.

I see no path that involves an electromagnetic field as the source of force to tug on tissue.
 

jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,088
Suction is not acceptable for two reasons - (1) suction is already being used for this type of medical application and I'm trying to create something new, and (2) suction is hard to finely tune/control, and it often damages the skin/surrounding tissue because it's too aggressive.
Cupping has been around for 3.5 millennia and is still used today (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupping_therapy ) . It seems you have an insurmountable hurdle to create a new method.
 

Thread Starter

icydash

Joined Jan 14, 2009
124
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Do you have any ideas other than suction and the electromagnetic approach? Since it sounds like the electromagnetic approach is out. And so is suction per client requirements.
 
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Thread Starter

icydash

Joined Jan 14, 2009
124
Sometimes clients ask for the moon. Doesn't mean that its possible just because magic solutions appear in their head. Your job will be to convince them that "I can'ot change the laws of physics Captain".

Ken
Very true. Fortunately, they just asked me to research various non-suction possibilities. But it's ok if the answer is "there are none that are feasible."
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,938
Not privy to your app, I will add that one can blow in more than one direction at same time. And one can puff. And time the measurement or app, with the puff. Puffs have been used with measurements for decades.

Ever have your eye puffed?
 

atferrari

Joined Jan 6, 2004
4,203
Maybe, more elegant: in the last three weeks I was the subject of tens of ECGs.

The small pads for the electrodes when properly applied, they adhere quite well to the skin. When moving in the bed, I've have never find one failing to stay in place even if pulling hard from them.
 

jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,088
Maybe, more elegant: in the last three weeks I was the subject of tens of ECGs.

The small pads for the electrodes when properly applied, they adhere quite well to the skin. When moving in the bed, I've have never find one failing to stay in place even if pulling hard from them.
I recommend that you be the first subject.
 
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