Count down timer for my soccer club

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
Hi Chris,

Hmm, adding features after you've got everything working? You must have some engineer's blood in you then. :D

First, I must have missed this before, sorry, but disconnect pins 4-7 and 13-15 from each and from ground of the 4060. These are all outputs and don't need to be tied to ground (plus you'll need them now). You can leave pin 9 disconnected as well, but if the clock is accurate, don't worry about it.

When you say pull pin 15 high, do you mean just that? The only way to decrement the counter (as you stated, pin 10 is held low) that way is to send a clock signal to pin 15 (high-low-high-etc.). You could tie one of the remote outputs to pin 15, but since all clock pins are tied together, the user would have to repeatedly press up and down on the remote button and would decrement by seconds which would take forever.

What you want is a fast clock. Thankfully, your 4060 is dividing 32.768kHz down to 2Hz (then 1Hz through the 4027). This is done by dividing the crystal signal multiple times on pins 1-7, and 13-15 (take a quick look at 4060 pinout here: http://www.coolcircuit.com/circuit/timer_4060/index.html).

I assume you still have your breadboard setup? With the clock paused, preset the counter to 45:00. Now, take a long jumper wire and connect it to pin 15 of any 4510 (since they are all connected). Now touch the other end of the jumper on one of the following pins of the 4060: 1-7, 13-15. Experiment with all of these pins until you find the best "FAST ADVANCE" and "SLOW ADVANCE" setting (per your diagram).

Once you've determined this, you can put a NPN transistor or MOSFET between the appropriate 4060 pin and pin 15 of the 4510s, then connect the remote signal to the base/gate of the transistor/MOSFET. If you use a transistor, you'll need to add a base resistor - I'd suggest a MOSFET if you have it. Either will act as a switch to short the 4510 clock pin to the faster 4060 pins.

This will decrement seconds and all which might be a little bit of a pain to set back to 00 once you get the minutes value where you need it. If you're feeling ambitious, you could try either adding 10kΩ resistors between the 1Hz clock signal and each of the pin 15 of the 4510s - then jumper pin 15 of each of the 4510s controlling the minutes and tie directly to the faster 4060 pins. See if this only changes the minutes value and keeps the seconds at 00. Alternately, try adding a signal diode like 1N914 or 1N4148 in series to 1Hz signal between the 4510s controlling the minutes and the 4510s controlling the seconds. This might do it too. This added goal is to only allow the minutes to change and keep the seconds set at 00. You might come up with something better.

In a perfect world, you could make multiple BCD inputs to the presets of the minute 4510s then press the corresponding remote button for 20:00 minutes and have just the 20 preset energized so the 20 is loaded into the minutes value. This would require a short time delay so that when the 20 minute remote button was pressed, the 20 BCD value was energized, the others were off, and then the preset was enabled. Number of other ways to do this, but it would require some thinking through and more parts. Using the faster clock outputs of the 4060 will do what you want with minimal effort and parts.

Great job on the circuit, loved the mention you got on the soccer website. I'm very glad to be able to help you out, then to see the fruits of your labor, simply awesome! Great job and good luck!
 

Thread Starter

chrischrischris

Joined Feb 18, 2012
313
Thanks elec_mech.
Yes, still working on the breadboard.
I was thinking of using the clock output as well - just didn't know how. Yes the trick is to only do the minutes and hold the seconds at 00. I'll try your suggestions today. Thanks also for the correction to 4-7 and 13-15. My bad assumption.
This morning however, I was wondering if it would be better and cleaner to include 3 BCD inputs to the 10s 4510 (to change to either 4, 3, 2) and 2 BCD inputs to the 1s 4510 (to get 5 or 0) - hence 45, 40, 35, 30, 25 or 20.. However if I did, I was pondering on how I could "toggle" these to trigger one after the other with the same remote button. It would have to input to an IC that would turn on these combinations one after the other. Would this be easy'sh?

I just though again - I have a 12 channel remote. Functions to date are:
1 = Home score "up"
2 = Away score "up"
3 = Home score "reset"
4 = Away score "reset"
5 = Timer "pause/resume"
6 = Nil
7 = Nil
8 = Nil
9 = Clock "fast advance" (a real time clock - seperate circuit - adopted from "Doctronics" website)
10 = Clock "slow advance"
11 = Enable to power to reset counter and clock (safety)
12 = Timer "reset to 45:00" as well as "pause"

What if remote button 6 = preset "3" for the tens, remote button 7 = preset to "2" for the tens and remote button 8 = preset "0" for the ones? That would give me all 6 times I need (45, 40, 35, 30, 25 and 20). Would it be possible to run these independantly?
 
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Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,415
I am looking at your schematics trying to figure out how you set the times. You conventions are a bit odd, not surprising since you have had no formal training, it does make things a bit hard to read for a set in his ways crusty type like me, but I will persevere. I may even redraw them if you'd like, I am pretty impressed overall. This is a project well worth documenting. Over all it is much more advanced than the Stadium circuit I designed for combat robotics (and never built).

So before I jump in half cocked how do you set them manually at this moment? This will likely dictate how to set them remotely, the mechanism would be the same. You mainly need to work on the count down timer, the quarter counter, and the clock and the score keeping counters, did I miss anything? Please point me to any posts with a schematic I need to refer to.

The OP asked me for my input, and I have got to get up to speed. The first thing is to establish the local controls, they drive what the remote controls look like.

If you want to work on the remote separately mean while, try setting something up where you can light 1 or more of the 12 LEDs with a control panel, this can be adapted later with ease once it is working.

Elec Mech is much further along on this circuit, and you and he have a good working relationship (which is more important than it looks). I have no intention of taking over, just offering another set of eyes that might help.

Edit: additional info. If you wanted specific remote features you need to design them into the manual set controls. I suspect you have locked yourself in on some things, and probably don't want to take the time (and extra components) to do a major redo. Could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.
 
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Thread Starter

chrischrischris

Joined Feb 18, 2012
313
Hi Bill.

I've attached the current drawing (which includes wiring diagram and prelim. PCB layouts). Most PCB layouts are 2 sided - hence they look a bit confusing.

View attachment Count down timer PCB_V5.pdf

I made a couple of corrections this morning as suggested by elec_mech.
As for the remote control, I bought a 12 channel unit on ebay for around $10. I've got 9 out of the 12 channels currently hooked up to my breadboard (as outlined above in this thread). They work a treat.

As you can see in the pdf, there are four parts:

  1. Home and Away score - done - working on the breadboard
  2. Re-settable count-down clock - this is the only big issue now
  3. Normal clock (from "doctronics site") - working on the breadboard (hence I've only drawn up the PCB layout in my AutoCAD / PDF file)
  4. Temperature display - no problems - working on the breadboard
The way the count down timer works at the moment:

  • I press remote button "11" and it latches power for 30 seconds only to allow me to change the clock time (item "3" above) as well as allows me to reset the timer (item "2" above). I thought this would be a good safety in case during a match someone accidentally presses button 12 that resets the count down clock, or stuffs up the real time clock time during the day.
  • As note above, I press remote "12" and it resets the clock and pauses it at the same time (else it would reset then start counting down straight away before the ref blew his whistle to start the game)
  • The reset noted above make pins 9 momentarily high in the 4510s of the "second displays" to reset them to 00. At the same time, it makes pins 1 momentarily high in the 4510s of the "minute displays" (i.e. to load preset input). This loads input from the 2 lots of 4pin dip switches in the circuit. These I've set to 4 and 5 respetively to get the 45 minutes (i.e. 0010 and 1010). However the way they are being pulled high or low (not sure which), I had to reverse them (i.e. 1101 and 0101). Showing my limited knowledge here again!
I've just tried elec_mech's suggestion of trying to using the clock to fast and slow advance the minutes independantly of the seconds and it sort of worked but have had some problems with miss counting or flickering of the minutes displays. Also, it's not as professional as going straight to the correct time in one or a few presses.

My preferance if possible, as elec_mech also suggested is to include some more preset dip switchs to also run 40, 35, 30, 25 and 20. In theory I think this could work in the manner that I just asked elec_mech:

What if remote button 6 = preset "3" for the tens, remote button 7 = preset to "2" for the tens and remote button 8 = preset "0" for the ones? That would give me all 6 times I need (45, 40, 35, 30, 25 and 20). Would it be possible to run these independantly?

Alternatively, and maybe even better, I could include 6 presets in the circuit ( each containing 8 dips switches) to run the different combinations on the 4510s minutes. These could be triggered by one single button on the remote. If that button triggers the clock in a new 4017, each press could initiate a different preset until arriving at the desired preset time. Your thoughts?
 

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
Hey Chris,

Okay, I've been pondering this and I think I have a couple of solutions. It really breaks down to the user interface and how much you want to do.

One way is to add another 4510 to each of the existing minute 4510s and dedicate remote output 6 for the tens and output 7 for the ones to control the clock. Thus, the user would hold down button 12, then press buttons 6 and 7, one at a time, to scroll through 0-9 for each place (tens and ones). This adds more parts and a bigger board.

You can do what you are describing, specifically using buttons 6-8 on the remote to give you a few different combos. To do this, you want something that changes the state of 2-3 pins of the preset inputs with a single signal from the remote. I don't think this can be done with one button press, but we can swing it with two. For example, the user decides they want the minutes to read 25. They'd hold down button 7 on the remote then press button 12. To get 30 minutes, the user would hold down buttons 6 and 8 then press button 12. Bare with me, I'm working this out backwards.

Would this be okay? The simplest way I can think to do this with the least number of parts and space is to add a few more BCD switches, technically one since you already have two. The remote outputs would then feed the 12V input into each of the BCD switches to get the right value. In this case, you'd hard-wire 45 (4 for the tens, 5 for the ones) but use 10kΩ resistors to connect each D/C/B/A input to GND or Vcc, respectfully. You'll then need two BCD switches for the tens (for 2 and 3) and one for the ones (for 0).

Think about this and let me know what you think. I'd go into more depth, but I gotta get to bed.
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,415
OK, I have found the section you have planned on using for the control.

I would put manual controls on the stadium circuits as well as the remote, for testing if nothing else (it will come in useful).

My question is what is it not doing that you need it to do? What are you trying to fix?



A comment about schematics. It is probably too late at this stage, but you should always get parts a number such as Q1 and U3 (etc), so you can identify specific parts of a schematic. Makes talking about a design with another person a nightmare otherwise.
 

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Thread Starter

chrischrischris

Joined Feb 18, 2012
313
Hi Bill & elec_mech.
Problem fixed.

Preset Schematic:
View attachment Count down Presets only schematic.pdf

Count down circuit total:
View attachment Count down circuit total.pdf


I was trying to somehow make it quick and easy way to set to 45:00, or 40:00, or 35, 30, 25 or 20:00. I've been working on the circuit all day now and "finally" resolved it with elec_mech's suggestion of adding more BCD presets and the use of a 4017 to toggle each.

I needed to reset the tens to either 2, 3, or 4 (0100, 1100 or 0010) and the ones to 5 or 0 (1010 or 0000).

After drawing the circuit, I found that a dozen diodes would do the trick (along with a 4017). Never used a 4017 before - it's excellent. It can toggle up to 10 outputs by repeated pressing of my remote. Linking the 7th output to reset makes it toggle 6 output then repeat. I used these 6 outputs to both power up the preset combination, reset and pause the clock with a single press. Pressing a second time, flips to the next preset time, then the next and next. Works perfectly.

Thanks guys. This week the large digits should arrive so I can test them with my breadboard. Then I just need to tackle the higher voltage for these digits. Then time to build !!! I'll keep in touch.
 

Thread Starter

chrischrischris

Joined Feb 18, 2012
313
Elec_mech,

A couple of questions if I may...

The 6", 8" and 10" seven segment led displays arrived. But they've raised a few questions. From the spec sheets, these need a forward V per seg of:

6" = 23.1 to 26.6 (because of 7 leds = I think 3.3V to 3.8V)
8" = 23.1 to 26.6 (with 7 leds, 3.3V - 3.8V)
10" = 33.0 to 38 (with 10 leds 3.3V - 3.8V)

Refer attached spec sheets
View attachment NFD-60011BUx-01.pdf
View attachment NFD-80011BUx-01.pdf
View attachment NFD-100011BUx-01.pdf

As an example, one of the 6" segments is made up of 2 leds in parallel time 7 sets in series. Per segment, the forward current seems to be 60mA (6"), 150mA (8") and 120mA(10"). Given I have 6 x 6" displays, 4 of the 8" and 4 of the 10" the total if correct is 6x60x7(2.52A) + 4x150x7(4.2A) + 4x120 x 7(3.36A).

I assume I therefore need a 24V DC regulated power supply that can deliver 2.52+4.2 = about 7Amps (maybe a 10 amp unit). Would this unit work:
http://www.austeknis.com/product.detail.php?pid=AT-PS2410 , or http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/24V-10A-DC-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply-/390089267739?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ad321da1b#ht_2153wt_1062


As for the 33 volt supply - I need around 5amp. Where the heck do I get this unit?. Should I build it?

Also, I started testing the 8" display. To get the same "current" in every segment, I had to use 22Ω resistors on 4 segments and 39Ω on the other 3. Is this normal or have I bought faulty displays?

Also, I find the current creeps up and stabilizes after the segment are warm - is this normal?

Lastly, the resistors get hot (especially the 33Ω ones). I'm using 1/4W which are obviously too small. How do I calculate the correct wattage (for power dissipation)? Sorry for the zillion questions and thanks for your patience.
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,415
There are other ways to handle hot resistors. Use two or three resistors in parallel, for example, or even in series. This will spread the heat around.

A clock project I build over a decade ago had a similar problem. Since this was a kit I was pretty surprised. The resistors got hot enough to melt solder on the board, which I thought was kind of rude. :D

I have several 24VDC 6.5A supplies I have kicking around, they are pretty common. How hard core are you on the 33 volts?

I would not build it myself, you could always use two modules to create the needed voltage, say 24VDC and 9VDC at 6 amps or more, preferably more amps. When using a component such as a power supply add extra to the specs, they will last much longer. Many of us use the 50%, but with power supplies the extra cost is such that may not be practical, but add some head room on the current if you can.

The power supplies you showed are pretty similar to the units I was thinking about.
 
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Thread Starter

chrischrischris

Joined Feb 18, 2012
313
Hi Bill.
Thanks for the reply.
I could you a couple of resistors, but I assumed due to the current going through them, the 1/4w are undersize. Since I have to buy the correct ohm resistors, will larger ones (1/2w or 1w) do the same job?

As for power supplies, I asked someone in the electronic store today and he said something about not being able to join two power supplies due to "switching" or something, so I abandoned the idea.

So can I just join the leads in series (24V and 9V supply) without any issue? If so, that would be fantastic. As for the amps, yes I agree. If I need 5amps I'd rather get 10amps - doesn't cost much extra.
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,415
Yes. The problem is similar to what I described, you may not want that heat concentrated in one place. Like I said, you may need to spread it (the heat) around, it is going to be there no matter what.

I'm more worried about what the heat will do to the surrounding circuitry, if it isn't that intense you need not worry about it. If it is think of ways to get rid of it, so it doesn't slowly bake anything to death.

And yes, you can up the wattages just fine. The leads will be heavier, but that is what they are for.
 

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
Hey Chris,

What are the specific part numbers of the digits you are using? You mention 3.3-3.8VDC, so I assume you've got either got green, blue, or white.

As far as the resistor values, what voltage are you working with to power the displays, 8" in your example? Be extremely leary of the values posted on these datasheets. They assume the minimum voltage of 3.3V, but as you stated, they could easily be up to 3.8V.

Let's do an example though. Say you're using an 8" display. According to the datasheet, the forward voltage of each segment is 23.1V (7 LEDs x 3.3V per LED). Now, this could be as high as 3.8V per LED and require 7 x 3.8V = 26.6V. Also remember that your ULN2003 can take 1-2V. So a 24VDC won't quite do it. You need some overhead to account for the current-limiting resistor and you don't want to tax the supply or have your LEDs appear weak.

For the same of example, let's say you get two 15VDC supplies rated 8A or more and tie them in series to get 30VDC at 8A. Now your resistor values will be 30-26.6-2= 1.4V -> 1.4V/150mA= 9.3Ω or less. Let's use 10Ω. To find the right power rating of the resistor: P = V*I -> 1.4V drop across the resistor * 150mA across the resistor = 0.21W, pretty close to 1/4W resistor. A 1/2W resistor would be good. Bill mentioned using two or more 1/4W resistors to spread out the heat. Remember two resistors in parallel with the same value will give you a total resistanace of half that value. So two 20Ω, 1/4W resistors connected in parallel will give you 10Ω with a 1/2W total - this assumes equal amounts of current go across each one which should be the case. Similarly, you could put three 30Ω, 1/4W resistors in parallel and get 10Ω at 3/4W, four 40Ω, 1/4W resistors in parallel will yield 10Ω at 1W, and so on.

Bill makes a great point that I would have missed - make sure you add some copper, i.e., make bigger traces on your PCB to the resistors and LED traces so they don't heat up too much. The bigger the trace, the less resistace across it, the less heat generated on the board.

For your 33V requirement, which could go to 38V, I'd suggest using two of the 24VDC supplies you found and putting them in series to give you 48VDC and 10A. Then worse case: 48-38V(drop across the LED segemnt, you'll need to check this with a meter)-2V(drop across the ULN2003 - check this too) = 8V -> 8V/120mA = 67Ω ~ 68Ω a common value. If you stick with one resistor per segment, then 8V * 120mA = 0.96W. So you'd want at least a 2W resistor. Of course, if you can get a smaller input voltage like 44V, then you'll drop your needed resistor wattage quite a bit.

I don't think there is a problem putting two power supplies in series, but I'd double check with Bill. I've done this with linear power supplies which are heavy and use a transformer, but I haven't tried this with switching power supplies like the one in your eBay link - this was probably what the guy at your electronics store was referring to. Just found this article, it looks pretty good and says you just need a couple of diodes: http://www.acopian.com/acopianPowerSupplies/entry.aspx?nsId=17

Again, I defer to Bill as this is outside my experience.

Hope this helps.
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,415
Just make sure the power supplies in question are floating. 24VDC should be enough though, I believe I can get your design down to that voltage with a little work. More on that later.

I had a different thought, though it is slightly off topic. We have a lot of requests for scoreboards here. I'm thinking of starting a series of articles for modules. There are many things in common on these units, but there are usually differences too.

If there were a source for these modules in the form of plans they could be combined to make whatever scoreboard is needed. It would have saved you a lot of work if it had existed.

I am not shy about using existing plans, and I'm looking at yours and mine. If I do this may I steal some of your work? Steal in this case meaning use with your permission, and credit given. OK, so steal is a bad choice of words. What do you think?

I haven't really looked at your LED setup at all. You should be able to get by with 24V with no hassle. LEDs are both fun and easy, if you follow the rules.

Mind if I check your display schematics out?
 

Thread Starter

chrischrischris

Joined Feb 18, 2012
313
Hi Bill.

Modules - I absolutely agree. I'm more than happy for you to use my plans and hack them as you feel best. I was going to upload all finished work at the end anyway for anyone to use / alter. This work never the less is not really all mine. It's a combination of this fantastic forum (I couldn't have done it without you and elec_mech) along with websites "doctronics" and "Lauriers handy little hints" and "google".

At the end I'll give you a photo of each breadboard (all 4), a corresponding wiring diagram (4) a PCB printable layout (4), some notes on how I created the PCB, finished board photos and finally scoreboard jpg and mp4 showing it in action! (hope I get there).

As for you comment - floating power supplies. Not sure what that means.
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,415
Sometimes power supplies are attached to ground on the + or - leads, if the - side is grounded they are positive power supplies, and visa versa. You can not chain these together because of the ground. If they are not attached they are floating.
 

Thread Starter

chrischrischris

Joined Feb 18, 2012
313
Hi elec_mech.

Sorry for the assumptions. I'm using ultra blue - wavelength 470.

I just tried to measure the voltage drops but came across a hurdle. Sorry for my lack of knowlege here, but the 8" display is common anode, hence each segment is -ve. Not sure how to measure the voltage drop. I just tried and killed one of the ULN2003's then a resistor (better that rather than the leds!). So I think I'll stop there.

Could you look at my circuit diagram from an earlier post and let me know how to measure the voltage drop considering the led displays are run via -ve to each segment.

I would however like to run these at a lower intensity to lengthen the life of the leds. I was thinking of between 15mA and 20mA rather than 30mA. Changing resistors, I found that the total current draw on all 7 combined segments was 700mA. The intensity of the LEDs was still quite bright - good enough (my kids were telling me to turn it off as it was so bright!). I then changed resistors to get it closer to 1amp - this was brighter than I need.

I would like to measure the voltages (as well as consumption of the ULN2003 - without blowing it up this time).

P=VI. Yes, I'll use this. As for the traces - I'll up those as well (or even use jumper wires.

Regarding the power supply link - nice link - ta.
I did read however (more a question for Bill), that in order to put 2 switching power supplies in series, you need to have an "isolated output". What does that mean?
 
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elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
Hey Chris,

How did you take the measurement to cause the ULN2003 to fail?

I looked at your last schematic from post #47 and noticed it shows your displays being tied to ground at pin 3. Since these are C.A. displays, is pin 3 actually tied to Vcc? I looked at the datasheet for the 8" display, but unfortunately they don't call out the pin numbers.

Assuming the common anode of each display is tied to Vcc, verify your meter probes are hooked into the meter properly. The red probe goes to V+ or similar on the meter and the black probe goes to V- or GND. Make darn sure your probes (usually red only) is NOT connected to the current measuring connection, usually located on the far left of the meter. This will short the probes and your circuit if not used properly to measure current.

Set the meter to read VDC (not VAC). Connect the red probe to the C.A. pin on one display (or simply Vcc going to the display). Place the black probe on one of the segment pins of the display (those pins going back to the resistors and ULN2003 pins). Make sure the resistors are connected between the ULN2003 and the display. You do not need to disassemble your circuit or short anything. Have a piece of paper handy and record the voltage for each segment, i.e., a, b, c, d, e, f, & g. This is the voltage going across each segment with your current resistor values. It will change a little bit if you change the resistor values. Also note you probably will see no voltage on a segment that is off, so try to set the display to show 8 to light up all segments or you can disconnect pin 3 of the corresponding 4511 IC from Vcc and connect it to GND. This will force all of the segments of that specific display to light up.

Now place the black probe on one of the outputs of the ULN2003. Connect the red probe to the corresponding resistor between that output and the display segment. This will tell you the voltage drop across the resistor. Do this for all seven outputs.

Now place the black probe on pin 8 of the ULN2003. Place the red probe on one of the 7 outputs. This is the voltage drop across the ULN2003. Do this for all seven.

Adding up the three voltage drops (across ULN2003, resistor, and segment) should give you Vcc feeding the display. If not, there is another drop somewhere that needs to be identified.

Knowing these values will allow you to better select or tweak your power supply or resistors accordingly. It would be a good idea to measure the current draw across each segment. To do this, move your red probe into the A (not mA) socket on the left of your meter (assuming you have this). Disconnect one end of one of the resistors, let's say the end connecting to the segment pin. Now connect the red probe to the corresponding segment pin and the black probe to the removed resistor lead. This will tell you the current going through each segment and resistor.

The current and voltage drop across each component will change everytime you use a different resistor, so you may need to repeat these measurements several times. Ideally, as you mentioned, you want to increase LED life by putting as little current through them as you need. Therefore, use your first measurements and current resistor values to see what value of resistors you can safely test as well as the needed resistor wattage you'll need. Keep increasing the resistor value until the display is as bright and/or dim as you want it.

Regarding your power supply, I think the one on eBay would work. It has a separate GND connection, so theoretically the COM (- output) connection is not tied to GND inside the supply. If you want to be extra safe, put a 500mA or 1A fast-blow fuse between the V+ and COM connections you hook together between two supplies.

So: Supply #1 Supply #2
COM V+ -----fuse-----COM V+

The unconnected COM of supply 1 is the GND of your circuit and the unconnected V+ goes to the common anode. Of course, assuming the fuse does not blow, test the output voltage first.

Once verified, you could connect the COM of supply #1 to the GND connection of the supply if desired for some protection, but that would not be required for operation. DO NOT connect the COM from supply #2 to GND of the supply. You should also use the continuity function of your meter to verify that COM is not connected to GND internally before doing anything.

When deciding on brightness, there are a couple of things to consider:
1) Distance the displays will be viewed from - if your display appears too bright up close, make sure you are viewing it from the same distance and angle as your target audience before changing the resistor values.
2) Daylight vs night - I think you already mentioned accounting for this, but just a reminder. A day time display will need to be brighter than a nighttime one.
3) Optical filter - Regardless of where or when the display is going/used, you want an optical filter of some type to better read the digits. Look at an LED bedroom alarm clock. They all have a colored plastic cover over the digits that match the color of the digits. This isn't to protect the LED so much as to make them easier to read. I suggest finding a 0.1 to 0.125 inch thick piece of transparent (dark) blue arcylic. As an example, something like this (the dark blue one): http://www.tapplastics.com/product/...s_rolls/acrylic_sheets_transparent_colors/519.

I'm not sure what is available in your neck of the woods, but you should have a plastic sheet shop somewhere I'd imagine. The filter will help you see the digits much more clearly.
 

Thread Starter

chrischrischris

Joined Feb 18, 2012
313
Hi elec_mech.
You're right on the ball again on a number of counts.

1. The schematic wiring diagram is incorrect. My breadboard and PCB layout has pin 3 of the displays going to Vcc. I didn't bother with Pin 8 - I assumed it was a double up as it worked without it being connected to Vcc. Correct?. As for the wiring diagram I forgot to change pin 3 to Vcc (as the digits were originally C.C types). Schematic amended. Ta.

2. I had been flipping back and forth the red probe to 10A (s I was also measuring at one stage the current between GND and the digit common (Vcc) to get a reading of between 600mA and 1.2A. I remember trying to measure between the C.A pin and the segment pins, so as you pointed out, my meter must have been incorrectly set. Your outline below makes perfect sense. I'll try it later today after work.

3. Power supplies - good to know how to set it up. I'll archive this info and use it down the track. At least I know it'll work. Another hurdle solved. Ta.

4. Brightness - you hit it right on the nose. I tried one display yesterday on the soccer ground in full sunshine (last time it was cloudy). I also walked across the other side of the pitch to check. Given the front of the displays are white, the contrast between the ultra blue and the white is not enough. The filter would probably work a treat. Also, with the current at the moment set to the lowest value, I assume the brightness is around 1400mcd (as per spec sheet) - 600mA total for 7 segments as compared to max of 1.05A. When I had it 1.05A however, I found the digit got really warm - I assumed this was not good. Not sure???

The spec sheet says I can run these at "typ" 4000mcd. I can't see the math? My 24V supply, via 10Ω resistors - total current (all 7 segments) = .6A, therefore probably min intensity 1400mcd. If I have a higher voltage, max total current for display of 1.05A, would this increase the intensity from 1400 to 4000 (i.e. factor of 3'sh)? Double the current - wouldn't it only double intensity? And if at 4000mcd, is it ok the digits get so warm? Spec sheet says 4000 is "typical" not "maximum".

5. Biggest problem now. Viewing the displays from across the pitch (50 metres), the 8" is too small. The 6" would be rediculous. What an oversight. I'm so depressed!!! I may have to look then at 20" displays throughout. Voltage required still 23 to 26V, however current per segment = 25amp x 18 = 0.45A. This is 3.15A per display. For 15 displays all lite up at once (not typical), it would be 15*3.15A = 47amps at 23V DC. This would be probably 3 or 4 lots of 15Amp supplies which isn't the issue - it's the circuitry. I'd probably have to abandon the ULN's and use something else - mosfets? I need a whisky. :(
 

elec_mech

Joined Nov 12, 2008
1,500
Hey Chris,

Pin 8 of the display? If you have two pins for Vcc, connect them both to Vcc directly. Remember each segment can take up to 150mA and that's from Vcc to ground. If you only use one Vcc pin, that means you're pumping 7 x 150mA = 1.05A through one pin. :eek: If you use both, then you divide up the current flow by half or 525mA per pin.

On the subject of your schematic, I noticed earlier but forgot to ask about your timer selection wiring solution. Looks great and has given me a few ideas for future projects. One observation though, I notice you're feeding the Vcc input of the BCD switches from the 4017, but they're still connected to Vcc directly. I assume you only have them connected to the 4017, correct?

2. I had been flipping back and forth the red probe to 10A (s I was also measuring at one stage the current between GND and the digit common (Vcc) to get a reading of between 600mA and 1.2A. I remember trying to measure between the C.A pin and the segment pins, so as you pointed out, my meter must have been incorrectly set.
I've done that a few times too. Took a while before I figured out I had blow the ammeter fuse on the meter when I couldn't get it to work right later. :D

Given the front of the displays are white, the contrast between the ultra blue and the white is not enough. The filter would probably work a treat.
Yes, the difference is like night and day, no pun intended. As a real quick, cheap method, you could also pick up some blue Syran wrap from the grocery store, cut off a bunch of 1 ft sections and layer 3-4 of them. This would at least give you something to "see" until you found a blue acrylic source.

Also, with the current at the moment set to the lowest value, I assume the brightness is around 1400mcd (as per spec sheet) - 600mA total for 7 segments as compared to max of 1.05A. When I had it 1.05A however, I found the digit got really warm - I assumed this was not good. Not sure???
It's kind of hard to say if the actual luminous output is a match to the spec sheet (1400mcd), the big factor here is how it looks to you and your requirements. Unfortunately, pre-built 7-segment displays get a little pricey the bigger you go and brighter ones add up more. To boot, they use small SMD LEDs that are then coated in epoxy to give you a uniform segment. That is great, but it diminishes the brightness. So first, tie all available Vcc pins on the displays to Vcc to disburse the current and see if that helps. Next, measure the actual current consumption of each segment to make sure it is fairly uniform. Of course, if they weren't one or more digits would appear dimmer than the others, but it never hurts to verify. Warm isn't unexpected, but they shouldn't get hot.

The spec sheet says I can run these at "typ" 4000mcd. I can't see the math? My 24V supply, via 10Ω resistors - total current (all 7 segments) = .6A, therefore probably min intensity 1400mcd. If I have a higher voltage, max total current for display of 1.05A, would this increase the intensity from 1400 to 4000 (i.e. factor of 3'sh)? Double the current - wouldn't it only double intensity? And if at 4000mcd, is it ok the digits get so warm? Spec sheet says 4000 is "typical" not "maximum".
Oh, there is a bit about optics, luminous intensity, viewing angle, current consumption and so on I've read about, but I can't recall anything distinctly to help you here. Maybe Bill has some input? In any event, you're using a 24VDC supply for digits that require 23.1V? That is cutting it awefully close. I've suggest upping your input voltage a little to say 28-30VDC and adjust your resistors accordingly. What might be happening is you're reaching the max voltage limit of the supply and the display is pulling more current than it should to compensate. Note the datasheet says the input voltage could be as high as 26.6VDC. I know it says max, but it's always a good idea to provide, say 3-4 volts over the required voltage of the LEDs just to be safe. This gives you that extra "pressure" if you need it to drive them.

5. Biggest problem now. Viewing the displays from across the pitch (50 metres), the 8" is too small. The 6" would be rediculous. What an oversight. I'm so depressed!!! I may have to look then at 20" displays throughout. Voltage required still 23 to 26V, however current per segment = 25amp x 18 = 0.45A. This is 3.15A per display. For 15 displays all lite up at once (not typical), it would be 15*3.15A = 47amps at 23V DC. This would be probably 3 or 4 lots of 15Amp supplies which isn't the issue - it's the circuitry. I'd probably have to abandon the ULN's and use something else - mosfets? I need a whisky. :(
Don't fret, let's say you need the digits bigger and/or brighter, you have another option - make them yourself. I've done this using 1/8" thick gray PVC plastic. This is great stuff because it's relatively cheap and it is super easy to machine (read: drill without splitting, which my first favorite material, acrylic, does easily). You then buy super bright, cheap LEDs from ledshoppe.com or eBay and wire up your own display. It will take some time to make, but it will be brighter and cheaper than any 7-segment display you'll find. To boot, you can wire each segment to the optimal voltage and current requirements of your circuit and power supply. Only difference will be small individual LEDs making up a segment instead of a uniform, diffused one (in appearance). Just a thought. You'll still want a filter though.

Try taking a poster board or tape a bunch of papers together and use a black marker to make a couple of different-sized "8" digits. Put them where you'd mount your display on a bright, sunny day and stand where your target audience will be. This will help you decide on what size you need.

Good luck!
 
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