I don't know of anyone that knowingly redefine voltage, but the way they use things it is often the case that they would need to in order to be internally consistent (i.e., be able to dispense with the magical mystery minus signs).

Saying that the negative terminal of the battery is at a higher potential than the positive terminal is simply wrong, unless you redefine the laws of physics to result in the polarities of all of our batteries (and every other voltage) to swap. This is perfectly valid, by the way, since the choice was arbitrary to begin with. But they won't even attempt to go there.

Saying that the negative terminal of the battery is at a higher potential than the positive terminal for electrons is a move in the right direction, but it still ignores that electric potential is a property of space (assuming a conservative electric field, which is reasonable for this discussion) and that it is independent of whether the charges in that space are positive or negative (assuming those charges are having negligible effect on the electric fields in that space, which is usually the case for practical circuits).

What they should say (and some do) is that, owing to their negative charge, electrons have a higher electrical potential energy at the negative terminal of the battery than they do at the positive terminal.

Yeah I agree with all of that, so they don’t actually assign different polarities but they talk about them they opposite way, like saying the negative terminal
Is higher potential. I always heard that the word electric potential was defined as J/C so a higher positive electric potential meant higher energy for a positive coulomb, therefore implying opposite for negative coulombs(electrons).

 

I don't know of anyone that knowingly redefine voltage, but the way they use things it is often the case that they would need to in order to be internally consistent (i.e., be able to dispense with the magical mystery minus signs).

Saying that the negative terminal of the battery is at a higher potential than the positive terminal is simply wrong, unless you redefine the laws of physics to result in the polarities of all of our batteries (and every other voltage) to swap. This is perfectly valid, by the way, since the choice was arbitrary to begin with. But they won't even attempt to go there.

Saying that the negative terminal of the battery is at a higher potential than the positive terminal for electrons is a move in the right direction, but it still ignores that electric potential is a property of space (assuming a conservative electric field, which is reasonable for this discussion) and that it is independent of whether the charges in that space are positive or negative (assuming those charges are having negligible effect on the electric fields in that space, which is usually the case for practical circuits).

What they should say (and some do) is that, owing to their negative charge, electrons have a higher electrical potential energy at the negative terminal of the battery than they do at the positive terminal.

So just to summarize and have something to come back and reference. Referring to conventional current and electron flow as two different conventions, as the article on this site does, the difference is in the way we are assigning values to the movement of charge. In conventional, the current arrow will always have the same sign as the charge moving in its direction and the opposite sign of the sign of the charge moving against it. In electron flow, as a different convention it has a value opposite signed of the charge that is moving in the direction of the arrow (thus if electrons are moving in the direction of the arrow the electron flow convention will have a positive sign). Now, once we have decided to ditch electron flow as a convention and use conventional current(which will appropriately reflect the sign of the charges) we have to understand the language in which we speak about it. The statements “current moves opposite to electrons”, “current must move from high to low potential”, “a negative current means the current goes the other way” all actually have a hidden Positive in front of the word current. If any of those sentences are interpreted with a negative current in mind, they are no longer true. Is this a fair summary of both the convention and the proper way to interpret sentences?

 

I don't know of anyone that knowingly redefine voltage, but the way they use things it is often the case that they would need to in order to be internally consistent (i.e., be able to dispense with the magical mystery minus signs).

Saying that the negative terminal of the battery is at a higher potential than the positive terminal is simply wrong, unless you redefine the laws of physics to result in the polarities of all of our batteries (and every other voltage) to swap. This is perfectly valid, by the way, since the choice was arbitrary to begin with. But they won't even attempt to go there.

Saying that the negative terminal of the battery is at a higher potential than the positive terminal for electrons is a move in the right direction, but it still ignores that electric potential is a property of space (assuming a conservative electric field, which is reasonable for this discussion) and that it is independent of whether the charges in that space are positive or negative (assuming those charges are having negligible effect on the electric fields in that space, which is usually the case for practical circuits).

What they should say (and some do) is that, owing to their negative charge, electrons have a higher electrical potential energy at the negative terminal of the battery than they do at the positive terminal.

Were you ever able to look at my final summary? Did it seem like a fair overview of everything?

 

I don't know of anyone that knowingly redefine voltage, but the way they use things it is often the case that they would need to in order to be internally consistent (i.e., be able to dispense with the magical mystery minus signs).

Saying that the negative terminal of the battery is at a higher potential than the positive terminal is simply wrong, unless you redefine the laws of physics to result in the polarities of all of our batteries (and every other voltage) to swap. This is perfectly valid, by the way, since the choice was arbitrary to begin with. But they won't even attempt to go there.

Saying that the negative terminal of the battery is at a higher potential than the positive terminal for electrons is a move in the right direction, but it still ignores that electric potential is a property of space (assuming a conservative electric field, which is reasonable for this discussion) and that it is independent of whether the charges in that space are positive or negative (assuming those charges are having negligible effect on the electric fields in that space, which is usually the case for practical circuits).

What they should say (and some do) is that, owing to their negative charge, electrons have a higher electrical potential energy at the negative terminal of the battery than they do at the positive terminal.

I do not mean to bother you too much, I just wanted to confirm my final summary so I have something to reference. I will summarize it’s more briefly here:
There are two possible ways people define positive current: in the direction of positive charge or in the direction of electrons. The conventional way that 99% of people use is to define a positive current in the direction of positive charge. Therefore it follows if you have a negative current, this current represent a net flow of negative charge in the direction of your arrow which means the arrow is in the direction of electrons. Under either convention, there is a tendency in all literature or conversation about current to talk about current as if it were positive. In other words, if it’s not specified, than it is safe to assume the person refers to positive. In any case, the word current implies positive current and this assumption is widely adhered to. This is why you often hear that current moves opposite to electrons, because they are implying positive current moves opposite of electrons, which is how our Convention is defined. Can anyone confirm this as a fair summary?

 

I do not mean to bother you too much, I just wanted to confirm my final summary so I have something to reference. I will summarize it’s more briefly here:
There are two possible ways people define positive current: in the direction of positive charge or in the direction of electrons. The conventional way that 99% of people use is to define a positive current in the direction of positive charge. Therefore it follows if you have a negative current, this current represent a net flow of negative charge in the direction of your arrow which means the arrow is in the direction of electrons. Under either convention, there is a tendency in all literature or conversation about current to talk about current as if it were positive. In other words, if it’s not specified, than it is safe to assume the person refers to positive. In any case, the word current implies positive current and this assumption is widely adhered to. This is why you often hear that current moves opposite to electrons, because they are implying positive current moves opposite of electrons, which is how our Convention is defined. Can anyone confirm this as a fair summary?

This entire description is for conventional current. None of it applies to "electron flow" current as nearly always interpreted.

If you are using conventional current, then a positive current means EITHER that positive charges flow in the direction of the reference arrow OR negative charges flow in the opposite direction. If the value of your current is negative, it means EITHER that positive charges flow in the direction opposite the direction of the reference arrow OR that negative charges flow in the direction of the arrow. You have no way to distinguish which of those two possibilities is the actual physical phenomenon. In the extremely rare case where it matters and you need to be able to distinguish them, then you need to use as your current the flow of charge carriers. There are no standard units for this, but people that are careful simply make up units, usually using some symbol, such as e-, as their base unit.

 

This entire description is for conventional current. None of it applies to "electron flow" current as nearly always interpreted.

If you are using conventional current, then a positive current means EITHER that positive charges flow in the direction of the reference arrow OR negative charges flow in the opposite direction. If the value of your current is negative, it means EITHER that positive charges flow in the direction opposite the direction of the reference arrow OR that negative charges flow in the direction of the arrow. You have no way to distinguish which of those two possibilities is the actual physical phenomenon. In the extremely rare case where it matters and you need to be able to distinguish them, then you need to use as your current the flow of charge carriers. There are no standard units for this, but people that are careful simply make up units, usually using some symbol, such as e-, as their base unit.

Isn’t my statement about deciding to use positive current in the direction of electrons a statement about electron flow as practice by most as a truly different convention? The way most would model electron flow is still conventional.

Did I get the semantic part right?

What did you mean when you said “then you need to use as your charge carriers” looks like a word got dropped somehow

 

Isn’t my statement about deciding to use positive current in the direction of electrons a statement about electron flow as practice by most as a truly different convention? The way most would model electron flow is still conventional.

Did I get the semantic part right?

What did you mean when you said “then you need to use as your charge carriers” looks like a word got dropped somehow

Yes, that part is correct -- I missed it when I reread it. So let me break it down a bit finer.

There are two possible ways people define positive current: in the direction of positive charge or in the direction of electrons.

Correct.

The conventional way that 99% of people use is to define a positive current in the direction of positive charge.

I don't know about 99% -- electron flow is taught in a lot of high school courses and a lot of trade schools. I'd also avoid using a word like "conventional" in this way as it is too easy for the reader to assume that you are using it because of the term "conventional current". Just say, "The way that 99% of people..."

Therefore it follows if you have a negative current, this current represent a net flow of negative charge in the direction of your arrow which means the arrow is in the direction of electrons.

This does not follow. While this is possible, the normal interpretation is that you have a net flow of positive charge in the direction opposite the arrow. This is the same as if you define the flow of water in a pipe with an arrow going from left-to-right and the value of the flow turns out to be negative -- it means that water is flowing in the opposite direction, not that you have the opposite polarity of water flowing in the direction of the arrow. The fact that charge has the possibility of having an opposite polarity merely adds an additional interpretation to either a positive or a negative value.

Under either convention, there is a tendency in all literature or conversation about current to talk about current as if it were positive. In other words, if it’s not specified, than it is safe to assume the person refers to positive. In any case, the word current implies positive current and this assumption is widely adhered to.

This is little more than saying that there is a tendency to interpret a number without a sign as a positive number.

This is why you often hear that current moves opposite to electrons, because they are implying positive current moves opposite of electrons, which is how our Convention is defined. Can anyone confirm this as a fair summary?

This is unrelated to whether we imply "positive current" when we say "current" (in a relevant context). If we are using conventional current and define it as positive when flowing from left-to-right (the arrow points to the right), then if the value is positive then flow of (positive) charge is from left-to-right while the flow of electrons would be from right-to-left. If the value is negative, then the flow of (positive) charge is from right-to-left while the flow of electrons would be from left-to-right. In case, the flow of electrons is in the direction opposite the current.

 

Okay, your first few responses are clear. Regarding the one that says that the usual interpretation of a negative current is to say that the net flow of positive charge goes the other way, I agree with that. However, if your system is a copper wire/trace circuit, we know only the electrons are moving, so while we could say the net flow of positive charge is the other way, would it not still be fair to say that electrons in this particular circuit move in the direction of negative current. I realize that in some circuits the charge carriers may not be electrons so it is more accurate to talk about net flow, but if the statement was that negative current is the direction that electrons are or would be flowing, that would be entirely accurate?

The next comment, what do you mean it is more than a tendency?

Your final comment, as you showed a negative current from a to b would be electrons moving from a to b (in a system with electrons free to move) so how is this not related to referring to positive current as just current? When we are saying that current moves opposite to electrons, we are implying we are talking about positive. We are not saying that any current can not point in the direction of electrons, because we can do this using a negative value. The flow of electrons would be opposite to the current,using the assumption thaT current means positive current

 

Okay, your first few responses are clear. Regarding the one that says that the usual interpretation of a negative current is to say that the net flow of positive charge goes the other way, I agree with that. However, if your system is a copper wire/trace circuit, we know only the electrons are moving, so while we could say the net flow of positive charge is the other way, would it not still be fair to say that electrons in this particular circuit move in the direction of negative current. I realize that in some circuits the charge carriers may not be electrons so it is more accurate to talk about net flow, but if the statement was that negative current is the direction that electrons are or would be flowing, that would be entirely accurate?

I think you are going out of your way, without realizing it, to make things far more complicated than they need to be.

When you state that electrons are moving in the direction of negative current, that would only be true when the current is not negative!

If I put an arrow pointing to the right, then if I have a current of +10 A, the electrons are flowing to the left. But if I have a negative current, say -10 A, then the electrons are flowing to the right, in the direction of the arrow.

The next comment, what do you mean it is more than a tendency?

What if someone were to come to you saying that text books don't make it clear that when they put a number that they mean that the number is positive and summarized their position as follows: "There is a tendency in all literature or conversation about a number current to talk about a number current as if it were positive. In other words, if it’s not specified, than it is safe to assume the person refers to positive. In any case, the word number current implies a positive number current and this assumption is widely adhered to."

Your final comment, as you showed a negative current from a to b would be electrons moving from a to b (in a system with electrons free to move) so how is this not related to referring to positive current as just current? When we are saying that current moves opposite to electrons, we are implying we are talking about positive. We are not saying that any current can not point in the direction of electrons, because we can do this using a negative value. The flow of electrons would be opposite to the current,using the assumption thaT current means positive current

Here you are making the mistake that I pointed out many moons ago of confusing the actual current with the reference current.

 

I think you are going out of your way, without realizing it, to make things far more complicated than they need to be.

When you state that electrons are moving in the direction of negative current, that would only be true when the current is not negative!

If I put an arrow pointing to the right, then if I have a current of +10 A, the electrons are flowing to the left. But if I have a negative current, say -10 A, then the electrons are flowing to the right, in the direction of the arrow.



What if someone were to come to you saying that text books don't make it clear that when they put a number that they mean that the number is positive and summarized their position as follows: "There is a tendency in all literature or conversation about a number current to talk about a number current as if it were positive. In other words, if it’s not specified, than it is safe to assume the person refers to positive. In any case, the word number current implies a positive number current and this assumption is widely adhered to."



Here you are making the mistake that I pointed out many moons ago of confusing the actual current with the reference current.

Okay I see what you are saying. When I am saying that the electrons move in the direction of negative current, I am intending to say that when you have a current with a - sign in front of it, than the electrons move in the direction of the arrow that has that - value. I am not referring to the term negative with the intention of meaning the direction opposite of the positive reference direction. Therefore if we have a - current from a to b, you can say that electrons are moving from a to b, is that correct now that I have clarified my intention? I guess I could rephrase it by saying electrons move in the direction of a current arrow that holds a negative value?

Regarding your other point, it seems you are making the case to treat an unspecified word of current or charge as always being positive is equally implied as someone saying an unspecified number? If that is the case, that makes sense but jumping to that case is a little less intuitive, but I can accept it.

Again, with the final statement when I am saying that the statement current moves opposite electrons being synonymous with positive current moves opposite of electrons, I am talking about actual current. In other words if you have solved using a reference direction and found that reference to be a positive value, than electrons go opposite of the reference. If the reference is found to be negative, than electrons move in the direction of the reference. Is that correct?

 

I think you are going out of your way, without realizing it, to make things far more complicated than they need to be.

When you state that electrons are moving in the direction of negative current, that would only be true when the current is not negative!

If I put an arrow pointing to the right, then if I have a current of +10 A, the electrons are flowing to the left. But if I have a negative current, say -10 A, then the electrons are flowing to the right, in the direction of the arrow.



What if someone were to come to you saying that text books don't make it clear that when they put a number that they mean that the number is positive and summarized their position as follows: "There is a tendency in all literature or conversation about a number current to talk about a number current as if it were positive. In other words, if it’s not specified, than it is safe to assume the person refers to positive. In any case, the word number current implies a positive number current and this assumption is widely adhered to."



Here you are making the mistake that I pointed out many moons ago of confusing the actual current with the reference current.

Basically you’re point saying if I have an arrow pointing in a direction say to the right and if that current has a negative value than electrons are moving to the right. Therefore electrons are moving in the direction of The negative value of current. That is what i was trying to convey by saying electrons move in the direction of negative current. I think you were interpreting me saying that as meaning when you assign a reference arrow for positive current, that electrons are going opposite to that arrow, which is not always true. I did not mean to convey that if that’s what was interpreted. So it would be fine to say electrons are in the direction of actual negative current?

 

Basically you’re point saying if I have an arrow pointing in a direction say to the right and if that current has a negative value than electrons are moving to the right. Therefore electrons are moving in the direction of The negative value of current. That is what i was trying to convey by saying electrons move in the direction of negative current. I think you were interpreting me saying that as meaning when you assign a reference arrow for positive current, that electrons are going opposite to that arrow, which is not always true. I did not mean to convey that if that’s what was interpreted. So it would be fine to say electrons are in the direction of actual negative current?

Let me try this again -- and that will be my last time.

I define the reference current as being from left-to-right.

Now let's say that the actual current is -10 A. That means that the actual current is flowing right-to-left, in the opposite direction of the reference current, which is defined as left-to-right.

The electrons that make up the actual current of -10 A are flowing from left-to-right, in the same direction as the reference current and, AS ALWAYS, in the direction opposite the actual current.

If the actual current is from A to B, then net positive charge is flowing from A to B. If that flow consists of electrons, then the electrons are flowing from B to A. It does not matter whether the actual current is positive or negative, whatever direction the actual current is flowing, the electrons are flowing in the opposite direction.

Whether or not they are flowing in the direction of the reference current depends on whether the actual current is positive or negative. If the actual current is positive, then electrons are flowing in the direction opposite the reference current. If the actual current is negative, then the actual current is in the direction opposite the reference current (that's what the minus sign indicates) and the electrons are flowing in the same direction as the reference current.

 

Let me try this again -- and that will be my last time.

I define the reference current as being from left-to-right.

Now let's say that the actual current is -10 A. That means that the actual current is flowing right-to-left, in the opposite direction of the reference current, which is defined as left-to-right.

The electrons that make up the actual current of -10 A are flowing from left-to-right, in the same direction as the reference current and, AS ALWAYS, in the direction opposite the actual current.

If the actual current is from A to B, then net positive charge is flowing from A to B. If that flow consists of electrons, then the electrons are flowing from B to A. It does not matter whether the actual current is positive or negative, whatever direction the actual current is flowing, the electrons are flowing in the opposite direction.

Whether or not they are flowing in the direction of the reference current depends on whether the actual current is positive or negative. If the actual current is positive, then electrons are flowing in the direction opposite the reference current. If the actual current is negative, then the actual current is in the direction opposite the reference current (that's what the minus sign indicates) and the electrons are flowing in the same direction as the reference current.

“If I put an arrow pointing to the right, then if I have a current of +10 A, the electrons are flowing to the left. But if I have a negative current, say -10 A, then the electrons are flowing to the right, in the direction of the arrow.”. This statement seems to summarize it succinctly. Whatever direction the actual negative current goes like you said in this case to the right, indicates the direction of the electrons. Therefore -10A to the right means electrons to the right, 10A to the right means electrons to the left. In this case the 10A would be referred to as the actual current, and -10A would be refereed to as the negative actual current.

This seems to be consistent with what you said and I do not expect you to explain more but I would appreciate your confirmation. Your help has been much appreciated.

 

Let me try this again -- and that will be my last time.

I define the reference current as being from left-to-right.

Now let's say that the actual current is -10 A. That means that the actual current is flowing right-to-left, in the opposite direction of the reference current, which is defined as left-to-right.

The electrons that make up the actual current of -10 A are flowing from left-to-right, in the same direction as the reference current and, AS ALWAYS, in the direction opposite the actual current.

If the actual current is from A to B, then net positive charge is flowing from A to B. If that flow consists of electrons, then the electrons are flowing from B to A. It does not matter whether the actual current is positive or negative, whatever direction the actual current is flowing, the electrons are flowing in the opposite direction.

Whether or not they are flowing in the direction of the reference current depends on whether the actual current is positive or negative. If the actual current is positive, then electrons are flowing in the direction opposite the reference current. If the actual current is negative, then the actual current is in the direction opposite the reference current (that's what the minus sign indicates) and the electrons are flowing in the same direction as the reference current.

I don’t want to bother you, but I would really appreciate if you could state where I am going wrong? To me it sounds like the same thing.

If I define a reference arrow from left to right and that value turns out to be 5A than electrons go from right to left. If that arrow turns out to be -5A than electrons are going left to right and the actual current (positive) goes right to left. And just as a side note, the term actual current seems to be very deceptive if it can only be positive. I have seen some books say positive current is actual current and negative current is wrong. What we are really saying is negative actual current one way means you could redraw your reference arrow and have a (positive) actual current the other way.

Thanks so much again! I can’t emphasize my appreciation enough!

 

This entire description is for conventional current. None of it applies to "electron flow" current as nearly always interpreted.

If you are using conventional current, then a positive current means EITHER that positive charges flow in the direction of the reference arrow OR negative charges flow in the opposite direction. If the value of your current is negative, it means EITHER that positive charges flow in the direction opposite the direction of the reference arrow OR that negative charges flow in the direction of the arrow. You have no way to distinguish which of those two possibilities is the actual physical phenomenon. In the extremely rare case where it matters and you need to be able to distinguish them, then you need to use as your current the flow of charge carriers. There are no standard units for this, but people that are careful simply make up units, usually using some symbol, such as e-, as their base unit.

Going back to this reply, you said “If the value of your current is negative, it means EITHER that positive charges flow in the direction opposite the direction of the reference arrow OR that negative charges flow in the direction of the arrow”. So in a system with no positive charge movement and only electron movement, you could say that electrons move in the direction of the negative value for current. This is what I was trying to state. I don’t see how this disagrees with what you have taught? And like you also said in this case you could say the current would flow opposite to the reference. And in this case current is obviously referring to positive current because it is not specified. What am I missing? When I read your explanations I agree with what you’re saying but it seems I’m not able to state it in proper terms?

 

Going back to this reply, you said “If the value of your current is negative, it means EITHER that positive charges flow in the direction opposite the direction of the reference arrow OR that negative charges flow in the direction of the arrow”. So in a system with no positive charge movement and only electron movement, you could say that electrons move in the direction of the negative value for current. This is what I was trying to state. I don’t see how this disagrees with what you have taught? And like you also said in this case you could say the current would flow opposite to the reference. And in this case current is obviously referring to positive current because it is not specified. What am I missing? When I read your explanations I agree with what you’re saying but it seems I’m not able to state it in proper terms?

So let's work with the claim I've highlighted above. Assume we have a reference current from left to right, which direction is "the direction of the negative value for current"? (a) left-to-right, or (b) right-to-left.

What if the current is +10 A. Which direction is "the direction of the negative value for current"?

What if the current is -10 A. Which direction is "the direction of the negative value for current"?

 

So let's work with the claim I've highlighted above. Assume we have a reference current from left to right, which direction is "the direction of the negative value for current"? (a) left-to-right, or (b) right-to-left.

What if the current is +10 A. Which direction is "the direction of the negative value for current"?

What if the current is -10 A. Which direction is "the direction of the negative value for current"?

For the first question with no value of current I would say we don’t know which way the negative value goes because we don’t have any value yet.

for the positive 10 it would be B

for the -10 it would be A?

 

at the end of the day,if your project works,current directions does not matter much. it is the joy and satisfaction that matters most.

 

at the end of the day,if your project works,current directions does not matter much. it is the joy and satisfaction that matters most.

That’s true, but communicating as an engineer, it will matter some, and that’s what I want to be able to do

 

For the first question with no value of current I would say we don’t know which way the negative value goes because we don’t have any value yet.

for the positive 10 it would be B

for the -10 it would be A?

Now explain, as if trying to get your point across to somewhat just seeing this for the very first time, how to interpret the phrase, "the direction of the negative value for current," such that they would come up with those same answers to those same questions.