I'm going to give you room to clarify that statement. Who is the, "we" that wants Perpetual War and Universal Surveillance, but doesn't want to spend (more that this years' GDP) to pay for it? Do you count yourself among those who act like the whole planet is where you are allowed to drop bombs and wealth is what comes out of a printing press?

Thanks!
No, I'm not one of those. But I do believe in paying for what you buy, and there are 2 ways to address that problem. Either don't buy it or raise taxes and pay for it. The example I like to use are the wars that we are putting on the credit card. I think that is north of 6 trillion now. We seem on the verge of expanding that credit line. I just hope we don't anger one of our biggest bankers.
Another are Medicare and Social Security. In those cases I think we should raise taxes and pay for them. That will probably start a riot.

 

Another are Medicare and Social Security.

Here is my naive fantasy about Medicare and Social Security funding: Put on your accountant hat and start at the beginning of Social Security. Make an accounting of all the money taken from the people to fund Social Security and the interest it would accumulate over the decades since Social Security started. Subtract payments for legitimate claims and administration and write down how much money is in the Social Security fund. Anything that is missing was stolen from the Social Security fund to finance other government functions.

In short: "They stole it with a pencil so they can put it back with a pencil."
Or: If you think Social Security is in trouble because We The People weren't taxed properly, you haven't been watching very well.

 

Here is my naive fantasy about Medicare and Social Security funding: Put on your accountant hat and start at the beginning of Social Security. Make an accounting of all the money taken from the people to fund Social Security and the interest it would accumulate over the decades since Social Security started. Subtract payments for legitimate claims and administration and write down how much money is in the Social Security fund. Anything that is missing was stolen from the Social Security fund to finance other government functions.

In short: "They stole it with a pencil so they can put it back with a pencil."
Or: If you think Social Security is in trouble because We The People weren't taxed properly, you haven't been watching very well.

Yeah, your right, that's going to screw up the old credit card some more. I don't mind them doing that to much as long as they don't do it in invisible ink. The money was going there anyway. It just went there as a loan instead of an investment.

 

I regard the ultra-conservative ploy of conflating public and private debt absurd on to offensive It seems the Conservative mind interprets 'fiscal responsibility' as 'we take your tax dollars and keep them!'

For a long time my state tended to look like it was running a bit too heavy on the overly conservative management approach. Especially when there appeared to be far more money on the bank than we needed to have there but that sort of changed in the last decade as the oil industry set in and the rest of the country went well past broke!

However that's where that budget surplus we had is really paying off well for us now being it gives us the financial resources to work with the oil industry plus further or regions infrastructure growth to fully support things with room to spare without going into debt or getting greedy with those who were investing here. I think that surplus is what is paying for nearly all of our continued infrastructure work now despite the reduction in oilfield work and well output plus everything else that has went down hill in the country.

Right now while the rest of the country is sitting under piles of debt waiting for some much needed cash to come from who knows where, we are investing our surplus in ourselves so that when things do pick up all we have to do is flip some switches, open some valves and put more trucks back on the road in order to watch the money come pouring in because we will have everything ready to go when the time comes!
New oil and gas pipelines will be in and ready, all new and improved regional and local electrical grid systems will be ready, our new roads won't be running at 150% of their old design capacity and above all we will have enough housing and related infrastructure in place to handle more people coming in the next time too!

Like everyone else we may be spending more than we are taking in at this time but we aren't going into massive debt with nothing to show for it while doing it which means that when things pick up in the future we won't have a huge debt to pay off or a major infrastructure rebuild to take on and pay for before we start making a profit on anything again.

Anyone can say what they want about conservative based government management but looking at what it did and is doing for my region we are not sitting on the curb screaming for handouts just to survive because it! We're in our yards pushing shovels and swinging hammers to build a better life while everyone else who took the more liberal approach their local government management stands int welfare line wondering how long it will be before they get to eat let alone do anything gainful for themselves again.

Kind of makes me think that just maybe this country should be looking at states like North Dakota for advice on how to run their business and not california.

 

The money was going there anyway. It just went there as a loan instead of an investment.

Excellent! We The People will get a much better ROI (Return on Investment) if we get paid at the interest rates for loans. Say, 18% to 24.99% per year instead of the 1/2% the banks pay for savings accounts?

 

Excellent! We The People will get a much better ROI (Return on Investment) if we get paid at the interest rates for loans. Say, 18% to 24.99% per year instead of the 1/2% the banks pay for savings accounts?

Not sure it makes any difference. They would have just taxed you more to pay you more. Wait, What's wrong with this picture?

 

Gophert HP told me abt needed clarification on points in your post so just so everyone knows I won't be back on fora for a few more weeks after this post cuz of other obligations So anyhow:

Ha, you obviously haven't read all of the attachments and references to the contracts that you signed. If you follow one in particular, you reach one that essentially says "pound salt". But, you must have known the US government shuts down.

Gophert That's inapplicable in our case cuz we made no such arrangements also we've profited much more from relationship than US Govt at this point (which is according to schedule)! So it's not matter of collecting damages (which I agree would be like getting blood from turnip) but if shutdown affects our schedule (or causes any other variation from conditions of contract) we can just pull out and leave them holding bag which I say they deserve if they are irresponsible and childish enough to shut down!

Did you get the US Government to sign a special letter to say you get compensated during a shutdown?

Gophert Not exactly but arrangement amounts to that and anyway it's not really abt compensation it's abt scheduling of consults!

Is your situation more special than everyone else's? Are you more deserving?

Gophert Pursuing and exercising my rights where some others don't doesn't mean I have superiority complex! It just means I'm pursuing my rights! What others do and don't do for their own reasons is totally up to them!

Do you need corporate welfare (in the form of rule-bending) because you cannot diversify your customer base and limit your operating risk? Quick, file a lawsuit!

I hold them to same standard of integrity as any other client if that's asking too much then US voters should be just very embarrassed or very angry at monster they created and let get out of control!

Gophert the thing that really irks me is they just take it as granted that we'll go along with their BS if they pay us multiple of originally contracted fee! They're just too lame to get that there's a principle involved that's way bigger than money! But everyone can see that's all Govt understands so to them everyone is for sale at right price!

So there are good reasons for not exercising option which are mainly professional ethics (which I say is more like courtesy and forbearance than ethics) cuz it helps business in long run to play by unwritten rules. Also governments (which I mean all governments not just US government) are really just like huge organized crime cartel which means they're a lot nicer to have as friends than enemies! But even so there's a very important principle involved so like I'm saying I'll have decision to make if it comes to shutdown that affects us in any negative way!

Please file your lawsuit in your Canadian courts so you
don't waste my tax dollars

Gophert if anything I decide costs US tax dollars the blame totally lies with malfeasance of US government!

failing all else, poor, overworked Aleph

HP my work is a lot less cushy than yours! So now your glass house is looking like ice palace in July!

What's up with starting a political thread?!

HP sry but it was only way I could do poll

 

They would have just taxed you more to pay you more. Wait, What's wrong with this picture?

I'm going to type this slowly so most of the people here can understand: Our Government passed a payroll tax based on the promise to keep the money and make it available for the benefit of the old, injured, ill, and/or disabled. Another word for, "promise" is, "contract". Our government accepted (legislated for itself) the fiduciary responsibility to save and protect that money which was collected for a specific purpose, and that includes protecting it from inflationary devaluation to some reasonable degree. Any interest or dividends the fund earns through proper management is not income to any person, therefore it can not be taxed as income. The entire fund is previously confiscated wealth with only one purpose, as required by the law which created that fund.

When the plutocrats become aware of a big pile of money that exists to provide Social Security to the people who actually produced that wealth, they want it. They write down that they took it to buy guns and bombs and they think that is the end of it. "I have your money, The conversation is over. Goodbye." Now they pretend that their contractual obligation is merely a symptom of people suffering from an unrealistic sense of, "entitlement". They clamor to spend less, "government" money on, "entitlements" when they are really clamoring to avoid responsibility for stealing the wealth from working people by breech of contract.

If the plutocrats would just pencil the money back into the Social Security account, with proper interest for borrowing the money, there would be no, "crisis".

 

ps, as a matter concerning the topic of this Thread, today's news includes this:
"...the president took funding for the wall off the table."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/25/us-government-shutdown-trump-border-wall

 

I'm going to type this slowly so most of the people here can understand: Our Government passed a payroll tax based on the promise to keep the money and make it available for the benefit of the old, injured, ill, and/or disabled. Another word for, "promise" is, "contract". Our government accepted (legislated for itself) the fiduciary responsibility to save and protect that money which was collected for a specific purpose, and that includes protecting it from inflationary devaluation to some reasonable degree. Any interest or dividends the fund earns through proper management is not income to any person, therefore it can not be taxed as income. The entire fund is previously confiscated wealth with only one purpose, as required by the law which created that fund.

When the plutocrats become aware of a big pile of money that exists to provide Social Security to the people who actually produced that wealth, they want it. They write down that they took it to buy guns and bombs and they think that is the end of it. "I have your money, The conversation is over. Goodbye." Now they pretend that their contractual obligation is merely a symptom of people suffering from an unrealistic sense of, "entitlement". They clamor to spend less, "government" money on, "entitlements" when they are really clamoring to avoid responsibility for stealing the wealth from working people by breech of contract.

If the plutocrats would just pencil the money back into the Social Security account, with proper interest for borrowing the money, there would be no, "crisis".

+1000!

 

ps, as a matter concerning the topic of this Thread, today's news includes this:
"...the president took funding for the wall off the table."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/25/us-government-shutdown-trump-border-wall

I'm rather indifferent to the wall myself but given the indications that a good deal of illegals have started leaving on their own and less are trying to come in now I don't really see it as being a huge priority or valid need for much of the border.

I'm getting the impression now that that just by having made the incentives for anyone to want to come here illegally or stay after their legal work visa or such time here is up low enough is starting to prove itself effective already.

 

ps, as a matter concerning the topic of this Thread, today's news includes this:
"...the president took funding for the wall off the table."

So I predict the Republicans will cave just enough to get a CR!

Well hey! Should @Aleph(0) 's 'high moral tone' ruin her as a consultant - she seems to have a bright future as a 'dial a psychic' advisor to fall back upon

Best regards
HP

 

I'm rather indifferent to the wall myself but given the indications that a good deal of illegals have started leaving on their own and less are trying to come in now I don't really see it as being a huge priority or valid need for much of the border.

I'm getting the impression now that that just by having made the incentives for anyone to want to come here illegally or stay after their legal work visa or such time here is up low enough is starting to prove itself effective already.

True enough! -- Trouble is, however, said incentivisation/disincentivization is liable to change every four to eight years -- hence the value of a tangible structure (even if only symbolic)... My $.02

Best regards
HP

 

I'm going to type this slowly so most of the people here can understand: Our Government passed a payroll tax based on the promise to keep the money and make it available for the benefit of the old, injured, ill, and/or disabled. Another word for, "promise" is, "contract". Our government accepted (legislated for itself) the fiduciary responsibility to save and protect that money which was collected for a specific purpose, and that includes protecting it from inflationary devaluation to some reasonable degree. Any interest or dividends the fund earns through proper management is not income to any person, therefore it can not be taxed as income. The entire fund is previously confiscated wealth with only one purpose, as required by the law which created that fund.

When the plutocrats become aware of a big pile of money that exists to provide Social Security to the people who actually produced that wealth, they want it. They write down that they took it to buy guns and bombs and they think that is the end of it. "I have your money, The conversation is over. Goodbye." Now they pretend that their contractual obligation is merely a symptom of people suffering from an unrealistic sense of, "entitlement". They clamor to spend less, "government" money on, "entitlements" when they are really clamoring to avoid responsibility for stealing the wealth from working people by breech of contract.

If the plutocrats would just pencil the money back into the Social Security account, with proper interest for borrowing the money, there would be no, "crisis".

They have not broken that contract ... Yet.

 

the value of a tangible structure (even if only symbolic)... My $.02

This reminds me of tcmtech when he said the engineering rigor of the Ford Motor Company resembles trying to filter drinking water with a chain link fence. The Trump Wall is almost entirely symbolic/cosmetic.

They have not broken that contract ... Yet.

They just keep screaming that it's broken. To what end escapes me. Do they want me to pay my taxes again so they can steal my money again? Do they just want to divert the fund to the guns and bombs constituency and forsake the contributors? I don't know.

 

They just keep screaming that it's broken. To what end escapes me. Do they want me to pay my taxes again so they can steal my money again? Do they just want to divert the fund to the guns and bombs constituency and forsake the contributors? I don't know.

I'm with you there!
My opinion is that they are trying to get you to think it can't be fixed - which may be true soon - so they can get rid of the obligation so they can buy more bombs.
Look at the proposals on the table now. Cut everything except the military (we will add to that).
Add to that the one to defund Medicaid - take grandma out of the nursing home and put her on the ice flow - so we can cut taxes for Exon and Chase.
But wait, we need that military money because we are going to add some wars with Syria, Iran, and North Korea.
Crazy.

 

I'll worry when they start pulling g back money from all the foreign governments or is it a constitutional requirements to give away money to foreign governments?

The UN should be defunded and lose diplomatic status. They can pay their own property and income taxes and parking tickets. Like the league of Nations, the UN is nothing.

 

The UN should be defunded and lose diplomatic status. They can pay their own property and income taxes and parking tickets. Like the league of Nations, the UN is nothing.

---Emphasis added---

Amen to that! But I would say less than nothing! Inasmuch as they represent little more than the proverbial 'pebble in our (The United States) shoe' --- but then world government organizations being, as they are, collectivist consortia, will tend to bite the hand that nurtures them - much as a werewolf!

Very best regards
HP

 

+1000!

I am heartened by the idea that, while I barely speak your language, you find my simplistic explanations to have merit.

As for what JoeJester said? Went right over my head.

 

I am heartened by the idea that, while I barely speak your language, you find my simplistic explanations to have merit.

---Emphasis added---

I daresay American English and 'Standard English' aren't that different!? But hey! Thanks for thoughts!

Very best regards
HP