Sounds to me like you have a short. With the breaker out, measure the resistance across the wires out if the breaker.

I disagree. My money is on a weak connection. If you're seeing 200VAC then it's not a short. Especially if you see two volts on one side of the breaker. That suggests an open or nearly open circuit. A short would burn out a wire somewhere. Since we don't know how "Jungle" wiring is run - we can only guess.

Unplug the refrigerator and use lights; check splices and tighten clean terminals.

This I agree with. Loose connection somewhere.

It was checking the splices that I found the issue. Two sections of spliced wire had no electrical tape and were touching, so this created a "dead short".

Some people call EVERY electrical problem a Short. A short is a serious problem as it creates a short cut pathway back to the source and can cause excessive heat, hence the need for a breaker to trip when too much current is drawn. On the other hand, people rarely call an electrical issue as an Open. An open circuit means it's broken somewhere. Since the TS found two wires touching - and if they were truly a short there would be bright flashes of light when they touched. VERY bright. An open - or an intermittent connection such as described can cause sparking but not the bright flash of light. The sparking is caused by a load somewhere down stream of the power source.

The two wires that were touching: Have they been isolated from each other? Did that solve the problem? Or have they been properly connected, rectifying the problem?

 

It wrks by detecting a small difference in current between the hot and neutral wires.

I realize that. But there has to be another path to provide the unbalance, usually considered the service earth ground, if one does not exist, there can be no imbalance.
My question to the OP was is his service earth grounded? and if so does he have a local ground reference, Ground rod etc.
In order to use grounded outlets.

 

Just look at the first picture, upper right side. You can see how he twisted bare wires together as a "splice".
This wiring violates all safety rules that I know of, and we are helping the OP? Someone is going to get electrocuted, for sure...

 

Just look at the first picture, upper right side. You can see how he twisted bare wires together as a "splice".
This wiring violates all safety rules that I know of, and we are helping the OP? Someone is going to get electrocuted, for sure...

and I was looking at the bottom of the breaker at the 4+ conductor cables. He's going to need a short to ensure a breaker trip.
If he has low voltage on both sides of of a conducting breaker, he's got supply issues. Then again, with the methods utilized, it's a crap shoot.

 

But there has to be another path to provide the unbalance, usually considered the service earth ground, if one does not exist, there can be no imbalance.

The imbalance would be from something drawing current that wasn't returning through the neutral wire - like a person conducting current to something other than the neutral wire.

 

Admittedly, there has to be something wrong in the breaker or it’s wiring as well, but I was right about the short, so why all the abuse?

Edited to add: I suspect the line coming in could not supply the current to trip the breaker, which would explain everything.

Bob

 

As per post #9, a earth ground conductor has to be implemented, even for a GFCI/RCD.
Assuming the service supply is referenced to earth ground.

A GFI does not need aground connection to operate. Consider that ifa ground was needed to operate, simply losing the ground connection would disable the protection function.
You can do this simple test to prove the point: With a spare GFCI connect a two wire cord to the "LINE terminals, and then plug in a light that only has a 2 wire cord into the outlet. Then connect a 47K ohm resistor to the ground terminal someplace. With the light on and lit, insert the other end of the resistor, not the grounded end, into either side of the GFI and observe that it trips. Adding the green wire ground connection might be needed for the "TEST" function, but not fora actual operation.

Also consider that this is a place in the jungle, not in the big city, and the electrical supply is locally generated. While good practices are recommended this is not Canada or california. So please tolerate a bit of deviation from those localities.

 

A GFI does not need aground connection to operate. Consider that ifa ground was needed to operate, simply losing the ground connection would disable the protection function.
You can do this simple test to prove the point: With a spare GFCI connect a two wire cord to the "LINE terminals, and then plug in a light that only has a 2 wire cord into the outlet. Then connect a 47K ohm resistor to the ground terminal someplace. With the light on and lit, insert the other end of the resistor, not the grounded end, into either side of the GFI and observe that it trips. Adding the green wire ground connection might be needed for the "TEST" function, but not fora actual operation.

Obviously the service is earth grounded at some point, in order to provide the leakage path and provide the unbalance, where do you think it comes from??
Many do not really understand the theory and practice of earth ground path and how is set up and exist.
You have admitted earlier you do not really understand it.

 

Obviously the service is earth grounded at some point, in order to provide the leakage path and provide the unbalance, where do you think it comes from??
Many do not really understand the theory and practice of earth ground path and how is set up and exist.
You have admitted earlier you do not really understand it.

Certainly one side of the distributed mains feed is grounded, I never challenged that part. It is the GFCI device that does not need that third, safety ground,(green wire), to function. That trip to break a shock condition is based only on the difference in current between the two conductors. Thus the tripping part of the GFCI device does not require that third wire to function. THAT was the point that I was making.

 

GFCI device that does not need that third, safety ground,(green wire), to function

.
hi Bill,
Read this.
GFCI means GROUND Fault Current Interrupter.

A residual-current device, residual-current circuit breaker or ground fault circuit interrupter is an electrical safety device that quickly breaks an electrical circuit with leakage current to ground. It is to protect equipment and to reduce the risk of serious harm from an ongoing electric shock.
E

 

@MisterBill2 is correct. A GFCI does not need a ground wire to operate. It trips when the current in the line is different than the current in the neutral. How? It winds both in a small coil such that the magnetic fields cancel when the current is equal. When they become unequal, it trips a breaker magnetically.

I learned this when I was looking for a simple solution to plugging in 3 prong plugs in an old house wired with no ground wire. I learned that you can legally use a GFCI 3-prong outlet in that situation. And the outlet comes with a sticker warning that the outlet is not actually grounded, which you must apply on the outlet plate. It does protect against shock, which is why it is legal.

Bob

 

Certainly one side of the distributed mains feed is grounded, I never challenged that part. It is the GFCI device that does not need that third, safety ground,(green wire), to function.

I entirely agree, although all of the service panel mounted GFI/RCD units and 15a GFI socket based outlets I have installed, all were equipped with a test button, which requires a earth conductor connection in order to complete the test function.
It is not needed for the unbalance detection, just a suitable earth ground circuit installed system to provide the 'third' conductor in the case of a fault.

 

IMO that installation should be using a RCD/GFI entry switch.

 

@MisterBill2 is correct. A GFCI does not need a ground wire to operate. It trips when the current in the line is different than the current in the neutral. How? It winds both in a small coil such that the magnetic fields cancel when the current is equal. When they become unequal, it trips a breaker magnetically.

But it still requires the third (Earth Ground) conductor path in order to operate and conduct the current difference.

 

But it still requires the third (Earth Ground) conductor path in order to operate and conduct the current difference.

Yes, the path is through the person who would have died if a regular outlet was used!

Bob

 

Yes, the path is through the person who would have died if a regular outlet was used!

Bob

And my point is that the ground path that trips the GFCI device is not through the connected ground wire, it is from one of the mains conductors to earth ground beyond the device. at one job a few years back, using a power drill during a light rain, I kept tripping the GFCI although I never felt even a tingle. Resetting it was a long walk and that was rather inconvenient. My battery drill was not powerful enough for the task and so it had to be the mains powered device to do the work. An adequate isolation transformer would have been handy, did not have an adequate one at the time.

 

And my point is that the ground path that trips the GFCI device is not through the connected ground wire, it is from one of the mains conductors to earth ground beyond the device. at one job a few years back, using a power drill during a light rain, I kept tripping the GFCI although I never felt even a tingle. Resetting it was a long walk and that was rather inconvenient. My battery drill was not powerful enough for the task and so it had to be the mains powered device to do the work. An adequate isolation transformer would have been handy, did not have an adequate one at the time.

In the TS dwelling consider that a GFCI will also disable the refrigerator if it trips, which would be a bad situation. Like around here when the fools demand a GFCI for the heater tape outlet to keep the pipes from freezing and bursting. The outlet is never used for anything else. So if a heater tape wrapped around a grounded water pipe has a small leakage current is that a safety hazard worth having a pipe burst?

 

And my point is that the ground path that trips the GFCI device is not through the connected ground wire, it is from one of the mains conductors to earth ground beyond the device.

I don't think anyone would dispute that?
I certainly wasn't !

 

One more concern about using a GFCI at the service entrance to a house is that in the event of a high current short circuit the device will probably be destroyed, unable to reset and provide any power for any function. I have replaced three such destroyed GFCIs that suffered exactly that fate. So if power to the whole house matters then either distributed protection or else careful grounding of conductive-surface appliances is in order. And it is often simple to remove the possibility of touching any grounded surface while using electrical items.