I'm not clear on the layout.

There are two ways to wire.

One is running power wire from panel to switch.
The other runs power to the lights first.

The main thing we need to know is, the first connection after the breaker panel.
Is that in the switch?

If you have high resistance grd-neutral there, then there is no need to look further down the circuit.
This should be the exact same wire that you ohmed in the panel. Just the other end.

Yes Inwo ... the first connection coming from the breaker box is this switch box in the brick. And I agree ... this should be the same wire I ohmed in the panel just the other end ... I need to go back to the breaker box I think ... this is a white/black/bare wire with no junction box in between ... it just doesn't seem to get any simpler than this.

I just can't seem to see the white wire and bare ground wire coming out of the breaker box ... it's too crowded with wires out the wazoo ... so I'm assuming when I ohm out the ground and neutral bar that that is good enough. I know where the black wire is since obviously it connects to the breaker ... I just can't seem to put my finger specifically on the matching white wire / bare ground wire. I hate crowded places.

 

Yes Inwo ... the first connection coming from the breaker box is this switch box in the brick. And I agree ... this should be the same wire I ohmed in the panel just the other end ... I need to go back to the breaker box I think ... this is a white/black/bare wire with no junction box in between ... it just doesn't seem to get any simpler than this.

Now we're on the same page.

I was starting to wonder.

Sometimes a nicked wire will break after flexing. Right where it goes into the panel at the romex connector.

Good luck!

 

Well ... I'm going to have pick this one up in the morning. I have a meeting now. I wish I could buy you all some pie. Thanks again for the help and insight. I'll start again in the morning ... if I find anything interesting I'll post.

 

I couldn't help myself ... I had to make one more post for the evening. Just a side observation. When I test for continuity sometimes ... I put a probe across bare ground and another probe across neutral ... and the meter registers something like 34M Ohms ... but then the resistance starts to decrease ... right now it's sitting at 1.4M ohms .... still a lot but it is steadily moving downward. I think I'll leave it for a while.

 

From your pictures, I would have to say an amateur did this job (no offense meant) and if an amateur did this job, I can't help but wonder if there is a splice between the junction box and the first switch box that may be starting to come apart. Squirrels and mice are not out of the question. Not sure where you live but as stated earlier, you are only allowed 12 loads on a circuit and I count 13. The wire connections on your switches are looped the wrong way and we don't use white wire for jumpers on the hot side. Your problem sounds most definitely between junction box and switch but I think you will have to go about it the hard way. Has any construction taken place in the home along this wires suspected route? How far is this first switch from the box? Can you test for voltage drop on the hot and neutral wires when the circuit is working?

 

Thanks bwilliams60 for the response. You're right ... there is a total of 13 lights on this one circuit (three legs if I've got the lingo down). I'm getting ready to go up in the attic and trace the power coming to the switch from the switch to the breaker box. It's a nice hot humid day ... in the city I'd have to pay for such an experience at the local spa.
I've looked at this wire before going back to the breaker box and it looked pretty clean ... but I'll take a much closer look this time and attempt to look at every inch along the way.
If it mysteriously starts working again I'll test for voltage drop between hot and neutral ... I'm sure I tested that before but I didn't record anything.

 

Before you go to the attic, I would suggest testing the continuity of the wire from the main panel to the switch box on the brick wall elctronically. If the continuity is good, you do not have to go into the attic.

 

That is essentially what he did.

Checking N to G in the panel. Zero ohms.

Checking N to G in the first box. Near inf.

It might save a trip to the attic, if OP could find a known common, and double check. But I doubt it.

Like the ground of a working circuit or the disconnected hot lead.

Seems a trip is needed to find a hidden box.

 

Perhaps I overlooked this but at the main box, have you taken a screwdriver and actually checked the tightness of the hot wire on the CB and the neutral wire on the buss bar? Secondly, if I am looking at your picture correctly, there looks to be a section of wire about 3" from the CB that has electrical tape around it. What is that all about? Lastly, have you checked the circuit breaker itself? They don't often go bad, but they do go bad the odd time. Start at your source and work your way to the first light switch. If you have an infrared thermometer, look for any hot spots along the route. There is only one path, you will find it, I'm sure.

 

Well it's been an interesting morning in the attic. I verified I was not getting continuity between neutral and ground in this circuit. Inwo ... you did give me an idea that I think helped do nothing more than verify I have a broken neutral somewhere. One of the bad circuit switches is next to a good circuit switch. So I killed both circuits and did a continuity check between neutrals ... at least I think I should have continuity between the two. It was wide open.

The trip in the attic yielded nothing. There is no junction between the breaker box and the switch in the wall. And the wire run looks clean except for some silver spray that is on everything from where the previous owner had the attic sprayed with that reflective stuff. Here's two images ... where it comes into the attic and where it goes down to the switch. If there's a break in the neutral it has to be within the 6ft. of wall I don't have access to (break box to attic and switch to attic).

This is aggravating to say the least. And to top it all off I stuck my leg through the ceiling. arrrgh.

 

Perhaps I overlooked this but at the main box, have you taken a screwdriver and actually checked the tightness of the hot wire on the CB and the neutral wire on the buss bar? Secondly, if I am looking at your picture correctly, there looks to be a section of wire about 3" from the CB that has electrical tape around it. What is that all about? Lastly, have you checked the circuit breaker itself? They don't often go bad, but they do go bad the odd time. Start at your source and work your way to the first light switch. If you have an infrared thermometer, look for any hot spots along the route. There is only one path, you will find it, I'm sure.

Yes ... I did check screws on all neutral bus connections and every stinkin circuit breaker. I'm not sure what that electrical tape is ... I'm certain if I cut it open it could be a twisted connection ... I'm thinking someone ran out of wire nuts? It's connected to a breaker labeled GFI. I was thinking this would not be connected to my current problem however it could be an issue ... if nothing else, it just looks unprofessional.

 

Checking N to G in the panel. Zero ohms.

Checking N to G in the first box. Near inf.

Besides the wire itself, there are at least two connection inside the main box - wire to bus and the "nut". Since the lights were coming back when OP was tampering with the "nut", it's very likely the fault is in one of them.

Another possibility is a break in the ground wire (although this wouldn't cause the lights go off, doesn't mean that the ground wire is intact).

Before going to the attic looking for the breaks, it's a good idea to make sure that the break is indeed in the wire, not in the connections, and not in the ground wire. EDIT: too late for that ...

 

On a neutral bas, there are several places where multiple wires are connected to the same nut. This can cause a bad connection even if the wire is visible in the hole and the screw feels tight.

 

Well it's been an interesting morning in the attic. I verified I was not getting continuity between neutral and ground in this circuit. Inwo ... you did give me an idea that I think helped do nothing more than verify I have a broken neutral somewhere. One of the bad circuit switches is next to a good circuit switch. So I killed both circuits and did a continuity check between neutrals ... at least I think I should have continuity between the two. It was wide open.



The trip in the attic yielded nothing. There is no junction between the breaker box and the switch in the wall. And the wire run looks clean except for some silver spray that is on everything from where the previous owner had the attic sprayed with that reflective stuff. Here's two images ... where it comes into the attic and where it goes down to the switch. If there's a break in the neutral it has to be within the 6ft. of wall I don't have access to (break box to attic and switch to attic).

.

Is there enough slack to pull a little more wire into box?

If not you could cut it "long" in the attic. Pull 4' down into the wall box to inspect.

The "cut" will allow checking which end is bad, from the attic. 50-50

There is not a problem adding a J-box in an accessible attic.

Looks like the only option is to replace the cable. One half at least!

 

I think at this point we can all agree that he has a broken neutral wire on the bad circuit. When you tested from the good circuit to the bad circuit on the neutral wire, you should have had continuity and little in the way of resistance. How are your fishing skills. I think at this point, I would fish a new wire up into the attic and straight down to the junction box, all in a single run. Option 2 is to open the wall up and find your problem but you are still going to end up running cable. I can relate to your hole in the ceiling. Did the same last summer fishing wire into my new kitchen. Made a soft landing on a beam but hurt my pride immensely. Couldn't cover it up before my wife got home either so I'm sure you know the story there lol. Good luck.

 

It's 1:41PM here ... I had to run the kids over to a lake party and get back to this problem. As I drove back home my mind was on this seemingly simple problem ... I wasn't paying attention to the speed limit and got pulled over by the local sheriff. He let me go with a warning.
I got home and went back out to that breaker box again. NorthGuy's comment about tinkering with that wire nut in the breaker box led me to going back out there and double checking everything. I took a screwdriver and a head full of determination out to that box ... tightened every screw on both neutral and ground ... and yes, a couple of connections cinched down a little. I then took that wire nut off the twisted white wires and took a real close look ... hmmm ... seems a little bit of the insulation is wedged between those wires. Is that something that could cause a problem? I tightened that nut extra hard.

I came back in the house ... the lights are working! It has to be something in that box.
If this wire nut fixes it I can start patching the ceiling.

 

As I drove back home my mind was on this seemingly simple problem ... I wasn't paying attention to the speed limit and got pulled over by the local sheriff. He let me go with a warning.

...So when you told him it was because you had your mind on your bad neutral, he suggested you get your gear box checked out??
Max.

 

...So when you told him it was because you had your mind on your bad neutral, he suggested getting your gear box checked out??
Max.

ha ... I think he could tell by the look on my face that I was having a pretty rotten day. I do owe my wife an apology though ... she called right after I came through the ceiling asking me for a favor ... my response was a bit rough. I need to learn to lighten up a bit when troubleshooting.

 

I flipped the switches a few times in the last half hour and things are still working. I wanted to figure out if that white wire with the nut in the breaker box had anything to do with this but I don't think it's related. I killed my kitchen light circuit and removed that "spliced" white wire from the neutral bar ... and then came back inside and did a continuity check between neutral and ground ... no resistance ... that beep from the Fluke makes my heart happy. But getting that wire nut out of the equation is at least somewhat useful. Again, lights are functioning properly right now.

The circuit now reads 122.3V neutral to hot no load ... and when I hit the switch it barely drops to 122V. Now if it would just stay that way for 20 years I'd be good.

 

Well ... I'm glad I took the wire nut off and got an up close look ... but I don't think it was affecting my circuit since I was able to completely disconnect it from the neutral bar and still test positive for continuity between neutral and ground (at the switch).

I'm not sure if I'm going to call an electrician or a Realtor.