I don't know the what ifs. As you said, there can't be a direct comparison.

I just like to think that the absence of metal detectors in public schools has something to do with the general absence of guns.

I 'll move the conversation to its own thread soon.

There have been more school shootings since guns were banned on school property than in the entire period prior to that.

There IS a problem, but people are blaming the tools/symptoms, rather than the disease.

 

I am a firm believer in gun control, I hit what I aim at.

Spray and Pray is the opposite. I'm debating changing the title. It is what incompetents do with guns. The majority of citizens in the USA know how to handle a gun quite well.

 

True, I was pulling your leg there a bit, Bill. I 'll change it now.

 

No offense to our UK members, but remember in WW2 when US citizens sent there own personal firearms to arm your citizens? Not the government 'Lend-Lease' but individuals sending them for the 'home guard' to use.

 

Most people don't associate the UK with lax gun laws, so I was surprised to learn on a hunting website that it is perfectly legal in the UK to fit a silencer (coyly named a moderator) on a hunting rifle. Night vision gear is also very popular in the UK fox-hunting community, and when prices on Gen4 nights-scopes drop to within my budget, I might go ahead and snag one in the UK. I want more gear. I want more gear, I say.

The UK Wild West did strike me as odd, since posession of a silencer stateside could earn a gun owner some serious pokey time in the federal pen. Cosmopolitan Brits are as anti-gun ownership as one would expect for Europe, but the countryside is awash with serious firepower.

My uncle was an old WWII vet who lived out his retirement years in North Wales, and I still have fond memories of going duck shooting with the old guy out on the wind-swept hills around his cottage. He taught me all I know about gun safety, and a fair bit about trapping wood-craft as well.

Out here in Africa, my modest collection comprises a pair of Winchester Model 1200 shotguns, one of which I retrofitted with a rifled slug barrel and scope, with bush pig hunting in mind. After long years of yearning to own a good rifle, a German hunter sold me his Steyr Hunter Pro Rifle chambered in 308, and topped with a very pricey scope made by Khales, which is an ideal rig for farm country bucks. The final item in my collection is a Lamber over-and-under 12 guage scattergun that I use for upland wing shooting.

I have never fired a shot in anger, but I have loosed off the odd volley from my pump gun when the barking of my dog pack alerted me to possible uninvited guests in the dead of night. I would feel completely helpess without that old pump gun leaning by the bed-stand, and after all these years and thousands of shots hunting, I can cycle rounds through that fire-stick as fast as any autoloader.

I love guns, so help me God.

 

No offense (?!?!) but that was a different time.

The times have changed.

 

In Canada, we're split. Out west we love our guns, while the eastern urbanites seek controls. Our history is substantially different however. We never had the 'Indian wars', and settled our country without the bloodshed, nor the need to serve immediate sentence on our slaves. One of our biggest chores for us was chasing out the renegade Americans that bootlegged and chased natives north for target practice. The lawlessness of the new west put guns in everyones hands. The question that is forthcoming is, will an armed civilian population be good during periods of civil disobedience.

 

Night Vision, suppressors, and fully automatic weapons are legal in the US, you only need to pay a $200 tax stamp and wait 4-6 months for the paperwork to go through the .gov swamp. It comes back as an actual stamp that is affixed to a card bearing your name, photo, and item the stamp is for.

The one problem is that in 1986 an Executive Order was signed which had a rider on it stating no new machine guns can be taxed.

So, new machine guns (fully automatic) can be made by SOT/Class 3 FFLs, and those FFLs can buy them as samples, but the average population can no longer buy new fully automatic weapons because they aren't allowed to buy the $200 tax stamp. When dealing with any fully automatic assembled prior to 1986, those are considered "Transferable", and can be sold by filling out the tax stamp form.

Suppressors do not have that nice wording, so anybody that qualifies for a concealed carry permit can qualify for a supressor. Cans are usually around $100 for .22LR, up to $900 and up for .223, .308 and even .50 BMG. (add $200 for tax stamp to prices above)

The only state you cannot own a .50 BMG is California. The workaround is gunsmiths re-chamber a .50 (new barrel) for a .499 type cartridge, which uses about the same cartridge, with a 0.001 smaller diameter bullet. Those are more expensive though, due to the limited market.

The states with the most restrictive gun laws have the highest violent crime rate as well. Washington DC, which until recently banned all firearms, has been in the top 5 for murders per capita since the ban went into effect, prior to that time, the crime only had them in the top 20. The states with the most open/free gun laws oddly rank very low in home invasions when compared to states where the criminals know everybody is unarmed.

 

The only apples-to-apples comparison I can think of is Australia's gun ban. They had guns and now they "don't"; same people, same demographics, 2 data points, so how are their numbers looking?

So if a country has nothing to gain from disarming it's citizens, then it has nothing to lose by allowing them to arm themselves; What the nation stands to lose by disarming is that the nation can no longer defend itself on it's own soil without relying wholly on the military if **** hits the fan. As Wookie mentioned in post #4, that's why we weren't hit at home in WWII:

I hope the sense of ascension over the barbarism of gun ownership is enough to comfort you with the giant target painted on your back... But of course it is, because I know you won't acknowledge that the target exists.

Australia's Port Arthur Massacre was clearly a FALSE FLAG EVENT as are most acts of terrorism. There was no way that the parliament could ever have disarmed Australians without a significant event like this--and of course, it occurred at just the right time--supposedly carried out in expert manner by a man of moron IQ level--there are so many loose ends to the official story that no thinking person is likely to believe it when presented with all the facts. Check out independent investigator Joe Vialls' shocking expose. Rather lengthy, but rivetingly interesting--10 part series. It has doubled in length since the last time I read it. A MUST READ for all 2nd Amendment enthusiasts.

Interesting side note: The 2nd Amendment actually says nothing about firearms... Rather insightful, the authors were...

 

I've never met someone in the UK who keeps a gun in their house with live ammunition. It is, more often than not, frowned upon over here.

What if a child "somehow" gets hold of it, who mistakes it for a toy gun, and tells you to put your hands up?

I will admit, we do have a lot of problems, where the law is concerned, with homeowners acting in self-defence against burglars.

 

I've never met someone in the UK who keeps a gun in their house with live ammunition. It is, more often than not, frowned upon over here.

What if a child "somehow" gets hold of it, who mistakes it for a toy gun, and tells you to put your hands up?

I will admit, we do have a lot of problems, where the law is concerned, with homeowners acting in self-defence against burglars.

A coworker used to frequent the UK as a service engineer--his observation was that there were few shootings, but numerous stabbings indicated in the newspapers etc.

Has anyone actually done a legitimate comparison that included stabbings? Could be revealing...

 

A coworker used to frequent the UK as a service engineer--his observation was that there were few shootings, but numerous stabbings indicated in the newspapers etc.

Has anyone actually done a legitimate comparison that included stabbings? Could be revealing...

YES, there are a lot of stabbings in London and Birmingham due to gang culture, but this is primarily due to issues of their own concern, such as love-triangles, drug deals gone sour and "disrespect."

Anyone can walk into a kitchen and retrieve a knife, so i'm not suprised they're using a knife as a weapon.

 

Other than that I don't use guns. I have just never had the need. I am not saying I'm against them.

I've never had a fire in my house...so I don't need a fire extinguisher. I do have one though, but I keep it unloaded...

 

Night Vision, suppressors, and fully automatic weapons are legal in the US, you only need to pay a $200 tax stamp and wait 4-6 months for the paperwork to go through the .gov swamp. It comes back as an actual stamp that is affixed to a card bearing your name, photo, and item the stamp is for.

The one problem is that in 1986 an Executive Order was signed which had a rider on it stating no new machine guns can be taxed.

So, new machine guns (fully automatic) can be made by SOT/Class 3 FFLs, and those FFLs can buy them as samples, but the average population can no longer buy new fully automatic weapons because they aren't allowed to buy the $200 tax stamp. When dealing with any fully automatic assembled prior to 1986, those are considered "Transferable", and can be sold by filling out the tax stamp form.

Suppressors do not have that nice wording, so anybody that qualifies for a concealed carry permit can qualify for a supressor. Cans are usually around $100 for .22LR, up to $900 and up for .223, .308 and even .50 BMG. (add $200 for tax stamp to prices above)

The only state you cannot own a .50 BMG is California. The workaround is gunsmiths re-chamber a .50 (new barrel) for a .499 type cartridge, which uses about the same cartridge, with a 0.001 smaller diameter bullet. Those are more expensive though, due to the limited market.

The states with the most restrictive gun laws have the highest violent crime rate as well. Washington DC, which until recently banned all firearms, has been in the top 5 for murders per capita since the ban went into effect, prior to that time, the crime only had them in the top 20. The states with the most open/free gun laws oddly rank very low in home invasions when compared to states where the criminals know everybody is unarmed.

Wow, I had no idea that concealed carry permit holders in the US could apply for a permit to use silencers/moderators/suppressors. Come to think of it though, the current generation of US ex-servicemen will all be old hands using that technology, and will expect to legally own such gear in civilian life, for self-defence purposes if necessary.

The part of your writeup highlighted in boldface is not the sort of statistic that the anti-gun movement likes to hear, yet the converse holds true in Switzerland, which boasts some of the lowest crime rates in the world, despite the fact that every adult male over 18 is entitled to go home in posession of their full-auto service rifle after completing their compulsary stint in the armed forces. That gun remains their legal property for life. I would hazard a guess that home-invasion crimes are simply unheard of in Switzerland.

Canadian citizens evidently own legal arsenals comparable to those held by private collectors in the US, yet the occurrence rate of domestic or accidental shootings in Canada is reportedly infinitessimal, in stark contrast to the rates of such incidents stateside. I still can't figure out why that is so, but at least it proves further that the availability of firepower does not necessarily predispose law abiding citizens to aggression, any more than does ownership of a valid driving license make drivers feel inclined to run over pedestrians.

 

Wow, I had no idea that concealed carry permit holders in the US could apply for a permit to use silencers/moderators/suppressors. Come to think of it though, the current generation of US ex-servicemen will all be old hands using that technology, and will expect to legally own such gear in civilian life, for self-defence purposes if necessary.

It's a lot easier on the ears when the group you shoot with all uses suppressors.

The arguments for supressors far outweigh the fear of them. Hearing is just one example. There are more benefits, with a good suppressor, accuracy is improved, barrel wobble is reduced due to the extra mass, among other things. While hunting coyotes, they are nearly required if you plan on getting more than one in a day, which is important when the coyotes are killing livestock.

 

The part of your writeup highlighted in boldface is not the sort of statistic that the anti-gun movement likes to hear, yet the converse holds true in Switzerland, which boasts some of the lowest crime rates in the world, despite the fact that every adult male over 18 is entitled to go home in posession of their full-auto service rifle after completing their compulsary stint in the armed forces. That gun remains their legal property for life. I would hazard a guess that home-invasion crimes are simply unheard of in Switzerland.

Canadian citizens evidently own legal arsenals comparable to those held by private collectors in the US, yet the occurrence rate of domestic or accidental shootings in Canada is reportedly infinitessimal, in stark contrast to the rates of such incidents stateside. I still can't figure out why that is so, but at least it proves further that the availability of firepower does not necessarily predispose law abiding citizens to aggression, any more than does ownership of a valid driving license make drivers feel inclined to run over pedestrians.

"An armed society is a polite society" Robert Heinlein

 

More REQUIRED READING:
Unintended Consequences, John Ross

Wow! this book must be now out of print and consequently in GREAT DEMAND--just look at the insane prices! and to think that I gave my copy away...
Good, but do not appreciate the sexual content.

 

More REQUIRED READING:
Unintended Consequences, John Ross

Wow! this book must be now out of print and consequently in GREAT DEMAND--just look at the insane prices! and to think that I gave my copy away...
Good, but do not appreciate the sexual content.

I have a personally autographed copy, and one in original shrink wrap.

 

I finally found this clip.

It's poor quality, but still - watch it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkxFMCdL33I

 

I have a personally autographed copy, and one in original shrink wrap.

Wow! again--An autographed copy is listed for $350 on ebay...