Tankless, instant hot water heater

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jjj

Joined Feb 25, 2007
116
I'll have an answer soon enough. I'm a member of a forum that's limited to licensed electrical journeymen and brought this to their attention, I'll bring some of the replies back over here.
I would link you to the forum but those guys are extremely picky about non-licensed people even reading through it.
Yes, their evaluation of that flawed product will be interesting, too.
After all that, you good people were able to sort out, I think it's a matter of life or death.
Tomorrow I will send the units back to Florida/USA and insist that they should reimburse me all shipping costs ($120) involved or am I not entitled? PayPal stipulates such article as "received item, is not as described".
 

Thread Starter

jjj

Joined Feb 25, 2007
116
That's where electricians seem to know more about, because they mainly deal with high voltages and amperages...
That too explains why there are so few of them around... God forbid! :p
Here's, yet another model of their range of "lethal products": http://www.productoracoral.com/electron_eng.html
In that video you can hear the (low volume) voice of camera man telling him to put the finger into the glass... to prove how safe it is. I am just amazed that they can they get away with this?
 
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retched

Joined Dec 5, 2009
5,208
Above 24v is considered "high" voltage in many circles.

In HVAC, 24v AC is considered a low-voltage control voltage, but 30v mixed ac/dc is considered HIGH voltage. I dont know if this is because of the DC component or not.
 

Thread Starter

jjj

Joined Feb 25, 2007
116
Today I sent them back... but received yet another message from their technical support, saying:
"You have to use a regular breaker, and do not worry you will not be electrocuted, thousands have been installed in Brasil, Colombia nad USA and not a single electrocution, so Chile should not be an exception.
All the electric showerhead manufacturers use this exposed wire element, such as Lorenzetti Brasil, Coral, Bocherinni, with an exceptional safety record".

So, they badly want me to step under this shower, albeit my electrician wants to save my life... :rolleyes:
I'll let you know how this saga will end.
 

retched

Joined Dec 5, 2009
5,208
Ill give you five bucks if you send them another e-mail from "your ghost" complaining about how their product killed you, and now you cant sue them because you are dead, so you are going to try to haunt them from the great beyond...via email. ;)

I guess Chilean water was more conductive and DID matter. ;)
 

Thread Starter

jjj

Joined Feb 25, 2007
116
Yea... that's what I was thinking, too! :D
Well, their email comes too late, because their lethal showers are already in the mail back. I hope they will compensate me for the shipping losses and then I'll just shut up, because I hate going into revenge mode.
I should have done my "research" before and not after I bought them. That's easily said in hindsight...
I just cannot believe that "...thousands have been installed in Brasil, Colombia and USA and not a single electrocution."
 

retched

Joined Dec 5, 2009
5,208
This is completely fricken' amazing. What the jolly HELL has happened to these peoples BRAINS?

Possibly while using one of these electric-chairs-in-a-shower-head, they received a lobotomy and forgot the part about electricity being ELECTRICITY!
 

retched

Joined Dec 5, 2009
5,208
I'm just thinking, if the neutral wire on that came loose, wouldn't you be the only connection to ground?
Why, yes you would! THIS IS NUTS!

Squirrel poop nuts.

Nuttier than Chinese chicken salad.

(Feel free to add to list ;) )


[ed]
Sorry had to add this image I just found:

[/ed]
 

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sceadwian

Joined Jun 1, 2009
499
One thing stands in their defense... I can't find any claims of deaths or electrocution via these types of units using Google.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that as soon as that water stream splits into packets of water with a cumulative separation greater than a millimeter or so the conduction path ceases to exist, for typical mains voltage.

I don't see any of you guys freaking out about 500kv high tension power lines in the rain. The circumstances that would be required for an actual electrocution on one of these devices would not occur under typical use. Say they reached up and touched the shower head when their foot was grounded, one of two things would happen, the hand would end up letting go of the output, or the foot would end up being lifted off the drain. No conduction path for a lethal electrocution has any possibility of existing for a length of time long enough to kill.

I'm SURE people have been shocked by these shower heads before, not even considering the in shower wiring job, but it would require circumstances under which no one has proved have ever occurred for someone to be lethally shocked.

If anyone disagrees with these statements the answer is simply. Provide a verified case of someone's death or a serious electrocution coming about from the use of one of these types of units under anything but extremely weird circumstances which lead to the injury or death of a human being.

Although it would unnerve me because I know what's occuring in the head I wouldn't hesitate for even a moment to take a shower that used one of these units, I know the risk is so low it's not properly calculable.
 

retched

Joined Dec 5, 2009
5,208
The water leaving the showerhead is the least of my concern. I am 6'3". I bump my head on shower heads quite often. There is no space between water droplets when there is no space between my head and the shower head.

By the way sceadwian, Ill be over to your house to install one of these in 15 min.

The thing is, this gives the DIYer a reason to put 230v into their SHOWER STALL!

Look at the photo in my previous post.

EVEN IF a future death is blamed on installation, the company is negligent.

And the risk changes as people attempt to install and troubleshoot these devices.

I can see it now... A nice foxy lady is taking a shower when all the sudden!..NO MORE HOT WATER!

What does she do?

Starts banging the shower head to get it to work (ala TV repair) or popping the cover off to see whats wrong...while she is dripping wet and covered in bubbles.
 
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tom66

Joined May 9, 2009
2,595
It's not just electrocution I'm worried about. Isn't that a fire hazard, live 230V next to water? At the very least any malfunction would lead to scalded wires - at worse, who knows what?

@retched's shocking shower pic: At one point while assisting someone install electrics, I was frustrated by all the regulations. Now I know that I'm kissing them for preventing that from being legal.
 

retched

Joined Dec 5, 2009
5,208
After watching the above video and seeing how easily these things come apart, I wouldn't be supprised if water pressure would cause the 'lid' to pop off.

If that happened, I would bet most people would pick up the fallen 'lid' and attempt to reattach it. ESPECIALLY if they were at a friends house and they thought they BROKE their friends fancy new shower head.

Now your hands are ALL OVER that thing..
 

sceadwian

Joined Jun 1, 2009
499
Is anyone gonna keep going one with the what ifs or post a verifiable death or injury report based on one? (No you can't be part of it so stop that thought right now)

I see postulation, wild speculation and not one single substantiating FACT. I'm not trying to defend these types of devices, but if this is supposed to be THAT dangerous, then bone up with the science that PROVES these things are actually that dangerous lethal and an instant death knell to anyone that touches them.

Where is the science to the naysayers? The makers say they've already done all that and the risks are probably within their underwriters limits (or they wouldn't have been able to produce on a large scale)

Even WITH hard water, water is not that good of a conductor. I'd love to see one of these 'nightmare' situations proved, and again when I say proved I mean verifiable documented show and tell proof =)
 

tom66

Joined May 9, 2009
2,595
I guess, perhaps it is not lethal, if installed and maintained properly. But, in many cases, it looks like a ticking time bomb. You don't need to have a death or even an injury to say that's dangerous. Live 230V in a bathroom?? Those words do not go together.

I advise anyone who says water is not a good conductor to stick their hand in a glass when they drop a charged 330V camera flash capacitor in it (long story; I was trying to electrolyse hydrogen for a science project.) It hurts. And that's not that much energy. It doesn't take much current to stop the heart; 35mA right? I measured the point to point resistance of some tap water in a glass at around 30kohms. So it's not that conductive, but it's still enough current to be fatal.
 

retched

Joined Dec 5, 2009
5,208
These products are not that popular in "first-world nations" Until they are, reports of death and or injury from the shocks incurred MAY NOT BE REPORTED!

As for your proof, the OP has stated that he measured 100v between the WATER and the GROUND.

So there is 100v...

The company says there SHOULD BE 30v!

The instructions say to WIRE IT WITHOUT GROUND or the breaker will trip!

As for UL certification, I SEE NONE!

Regardless. If you are going to run a high voltage, high current circuit to your shower stall, UN-GROUNDED, any accidental pipe leak or chewing mouse could cause trouble.

And as I said earlier, there may be zero reports of death from these devices thus far. But they have only been trying to sell these in the US for a short time.

Even a 30v shock (Which is SUPPOSED TO BE THERE) while you are showering could EASILY cause a slip in the tub!

Guns didn't kill anyone when they were first built either. It wasn't until we started using them for a while before there were REPORTS OF PEOPLE BEING KILLED BY THEM. ;)
 
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