One to leave it as is. One to raise it to 15 and one to raise it to 12 and let the states worry about the rest.

You missed the 4th choice: raise it to $1M/hr. If a raise to $12 is good, then to $1M would be 222,220.5556 times better, no?

After all, you must admit we are talking arbitrary numbers. I can do arbitrary better than anyone.

 

We have 3 choices this time.
One to leave it as is. One to raise it to 15 and one to raise it to 12 and let the states worry about the rest.

Or abolish it! What an awesome move that would be. We're Americans, let's act like it and show the world we don't need such crap.

 

Not that I agree with all of this, but it does make some good points.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/13/why-we-need-a-minimum-wage/#452e20a660c5

 

Not that I agree with all of this, but it does make some good points.

History is replete with statists who can justify any form of government interference into any aspect of our lives for any reason whatsoever.

Again, I ask those who would like to get a much better idea of how pervasive statism is, the damage it causes, and how capitalism prevents these issues, please read "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" by Ayn Rand. If you do, and you think it is wrong, tell me where and I'll be happy to help correct your misunderstanding.

 

History is replete with statists who can justify any form of government interference into any aspect of our lives for any reason whatsoever.

Again, I ask those who would like to get a much better idea of how pervasive statism is, the damage it causes, and how capitalism prevents these issues, please read "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" by Ayn Rand. If you do, and you think it is wrong, tell me where and I'll be happy to help correct your misunderstanding.

Trickle, Trickle.
Bad things happen when people get hungry.

 

History is replete with statists who can justify any form of government interference into any aspect of our lives for any reason whatsoever.

Again, I ask those who would like to get a much better idea of how pervasive statism is, the damage it causes, and how capitalism prevents these issues, please read "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" by Ayn Rand. If you do, and you think it is wrong, tell me where and I'll be happy to help correct your misunderstanding.

Not the crazy lady again!

1. Laissez-Faire capitalism doesn't work. Laissez-Faire capitalism is a utopian fantasy. And like all utopias, it cannot actually exist. Therefore, as a philosophy, it needs to be judged on how it gets implemented in the real world, with all the real world's inherent inconsistencies. Just like Marxism, in the real world, produced the Soviet system in Russia, the real world implementation of laissez-faire capitalism, led by Rand-disciple Greenspan, produced the great recession.
2. Reason has real-world limitations. While I'm all for valuing reason over superstition, the notion that one can use reason without emotion is science fiction. Maybe that works on the planet Vulcan, but human beings swim in a vast ocean of emotion. Emotion governs the "why" behind every exercise of reason, determining our choices of interest and intention. In the real world, people use reason as a way to buttress what their emotions desire.
3. Ayn Rand was a emotional nut case. Regardless of what you think of her philosophy and writing, Rand's personal life was a complete shambles. She became involved in an adulterous affair with a disciple (a "reasonable" decision on her part, of course), and then went all "old bat of out hell" when he made the "reasonable" decision to start boinking some younger woman. The resulting emotional pyrotechnics were a perfect example of the impotence of Objectivism as a life creed.
4. Her philosophy is devoid of gratitude. While individualism has some value, Objectivism largely discounts the fact the every successful person stands on the shoulders of those who have come before. In addition, success always involves an element of luck, often consisting of having had the luck to be born into a rich family with plenty of connections. Success devoid of gratitude and the noblesse oblige to help others brings out the worst in people.
5. Reality is NOT an objective absolute. There's no way to tell whether reality is objective or not because it can only be perceived subjectively. While it could be argued that the consensus of multiple subjective realities equals objective reality, the exact same logic would also assign objective reality to Jung's archetypes, which appear inside every human being's dreams. In any case, measuring something changes the thing measured, so simply perceiving "reality" changes the nature of reality. Therefore, so it can't be absolute.
6. Howard Roark was a lousy architect. If Roark (the hero of Rand's book The Fountainhead) wanted his "vision" to be his alone, he had no business getting other people to bankroll it. Instead, he should have done something like the Watts Towers, where he'd be responsible for every part of the project, including its construction. Large scale architecture is a collaborative venture that involves satisfying the desires and needs of the client. Good architects are expert at managing client expectations and working through creative differences.
7. Facts do NOT trump feelings, wishes, hopes, and fears. As any sales professional knows, when dealing with human beings, facts ALWAYS run a distant fifth. That's particularly true when dealing with people who are operating under the fantasy that their decisions are based upon "fact." Emotion trumps reason every time, and nobody is easier to influence emotionally than those who are so unaware of that their emotions that they think they're making "reasonable" decisions.
8. Every man does NOT exist for his own sake. While Rand believed that pursuit of one's own rational self-interest and one's own happiness is his life's moral purpose, the scientific fact is that man evolved as a communal creature, with bonds of family and community being tightly tied to health, happiness, longevity, and pretty much everything that makes life pleasurable. Objectivism thus runs counter to demonstrable scientific fact.
9. Reading Rand creates instant jackasses. Anyone who's been subjected to a friend who suddenly "discovers" Rand knows that reading her works causes people to act like selfish idiots. They combine a patina of "reason" over a self-righteous justification of whatever their "id" happens to want at the time and then insist that they're just pursuing their own self-interest. They also become incredibly boring, about on the level of a newly converted Scientologist.
10. Rand is the CEOs' favorite philosopher. Most CEOs already have CEO disease, which the medical profession defines as "the enlargement of the sphincter so that it covers the entire body, creating an overwhelming itch that can only be calmed by the frequent osculation of underlings." Let's face it: if there was ever an human ilk who don't need a philosophy that drives them to be even more selfish, it's the overpaid and overpampered CEOs of the world.

IMHO, it's long past time to consign Objectivism to the same intellectual dustbin where we've thrown Marxism and Absolute Monarchy.

As a bonus, we won't be forced any longer to listen to newly minted Rand fanboys drone on and on and on and on about how much more enlightened they are than the rest of us hoi-polloi. Puleeze! (eye roll)

 

Not the crazy lady again!

1. Laissez-Faire capitalism doesn't work. Laissez-Faire capitalism is a utopian fantasy. And like all utopias, it cannot actually exist. Therefore, as a philosophy, it needs to be judged on how it gets implemented in the real world, with all the real world's inherent inconsistencies. Just like Marxism, in the real world, produced the Soviet system in Russia, the real world implementation of laissez-faire capitalism, led by Rand-disciple Greenspan, produced the great recession.
2. Reason has real-world limitations. While I'm all for valuing reason over superstition, the notion that one can use reason without emotion is science fiction. Maybe that works on the planet Vulcan, but human beings swim in a vast ocean of emotion. Emotion governs the "why" behind every exercise of reason, determining our choices of interest and intention. In the real world, people use reason as a way to buttress what their emotions desire.
3. Ayn Rand was a emotional nut case. Regardless of what you think of her philosophy and writing, Rand's personal life was a complete shambles. She became involved in an adulterous affair with a disciple (a "reasonable" decision on her part, of course), and then went all "old bat of out hell" when he made the "reasonable" decision to start boinking some younger woman. The resulting emotional pyrotechnics were a perfect example of the impotence of Objectivism as a life creed.
4. Her philosophy is devoid of gratitude. While individualism has some value, Objectivism largely discounts the fact the every successful person stands on the shoulders of those who have come before. In addition, success always involves an element of luck, often consisting of having had the luck to be born into a rich family with plenty of connections. Success devoid of gratitude and the noblesse oblige to help others brings out the worst in people.
5. Reality is NOT an objective absolute. There's no way to tell whether reality is objective or not because it can only be perceived subjectively. While it could be argued that the consensus of multiple subjective realities equals objective reality, the exact same logic would also assign objective reality to Jung's archetypes, which appear inside every human being's dreams. In any case, measuring something changes the thing measured, so simply perceiving "reality" changes the nature of reality. Therefore, so it can't be absolute.
6. Howard Roark was a lousy architect. If Roark (the hero of Rand's book The Fountainhead) wanted his "vision" to be his alone, he had no business getting other people to bankroll it. Instead, he should have done something like the Watts Towers, where he'd be responsible for every part of the project, including its construction. Large scale architecture is a collaborative venture that involves satisfying the desires and needs of the client. Good architects are expert at managing client expectations and working through creative differences.
7. Facts do NOT trump feelings, wishes, hopes, and fears. As any sales professional knows, when dealing with human beings, facts ALWAYS run a distant fifth. That's particularly true when dealing with people who are operating under the fantasy that their decisions are based upon "fact." Emotion trumps reason every time, and nobody is easier to influence emotionally than those who are so unaware of that their emotions that they think they're making "reasonable" decisions.
8. Every man does NOT exist for his own sake. While Rand believed that pursuit of one's own rational self-interest and one's own happiness is his life's moral purpose, the scientific fact is that man evolved as a communal creature, with bonds of family and community being tightly tied to health, happiness, longevity, and pretty much everything that makes life pleasurable. Objectivism thus runs counter to demonstrable scientific fact.
9. Reading Rand creates instant jackasses. Anyone who's been subjected to a friend who suddenly "discovers" Rand knows that reading her works causes people to act like selfish idiots. They combine a patina of "reason" over a self-righteous justification of whatever their "id" happens to want at the time and then insist that they're just pursuing their own self-interest. They also become incredibly boring, about on the level of a newly converted Scientologist.
10. Rand is the CEOs' favorite philosopher. Most CEOs already have CEO disease, which the medical profession defines as "the enlargement of the sphincter so that it covers the entire body, creating an overwhelming itch that can only be calmed by the frequent osculation of underlings." Let's face it: if there was ever an human ilk who don't need a philosophy that drives them to be even more selfish, it's the overpaid and overpampered CEOs of the world.

IMHO, it's long past time to consign Objectivism to the same intellectual dustbin where we've thrown Marxism and Absolute Monarchy.

As a bonus, we won't be forced any longer to listen to newly minted Rand fanboys drone on and on and on and on about how much more enlightened they are than the rest of us hoi-polloi. Puleeze! (eye roll)

Your dishonor is showing. When you refuse to attribute the things you post to those who wrote them, you are a plagiarist.

Henceforth, as I now know your true nature, you are on my ignore list. Congratulations, you are the first.

 

Batting less than .500 with your list!

 

Batting less than .500 with your list!

It's not his list. But who can tell?

 

I was interested to notice in a link from that Forbes article that Germany does not currently have a minimum wage, although they are considering one. Of course they have other mechanisms that allegedly address the same issues.

 

Your dishonor is showing. When you refuse to attribute the things you post to those who wrote them, you are a plagiarist.

Henceforth, as I now know your true nature, you are on my ignore list. Congratulations, you are the first.

I'm honored.
Never in my wildest dreams thought about spending that much of my time on such a wasted subject.
Thus the copy.

 

I was interested to notice in a link from that Forbes article that Germany does not currently have a minimum wage, although they are considering one. Of course they have other mechanisms that allegedly address the same issues.

They seem to have a better relationship between the unions and business than we have here.

 

Ayn Rand give people an excuse for their greed and meanness, nothing more or less. And like many so called artists they are more famous in death than life.

 

Some companies post the minimum wage laws on bulletin boards

Don't know if it still is but that used to be a Federal Law , for it to be posted in a place available to all employees.

 

I predict this thread will be closed soon.

 

Ayn Rand give people an excuse for their greed and meanness, nothing more or less. And like many so called artists they are more famous in death than life.

It always strikes me as interesting that when someone wants to keep what they have worked for it is greedy and mean, but when someone wants what someone else has worked for to be taken away and given to them it is social justice.

 

It always strikes me as interesting that when someone wants to keep what they have worked for it is greedy and mean, but when someone wants what someone else has worked for to be taken away and given to them it is social justice.

That's a different conversation as opposed to the crazy lady's rants.
But having said that I think history proves that when all the money goes to the top unrest edit: (in our markets) soon follows.

 

Ayn Rand give people an excuse for their greed and meanness, nothing more or less. And like many so called artists they are more famous in death than life.

how about this:

“I think she’s [Rand] one of the greatest people of all time. Ultimately, in philosophy, she’s going to be one of the giants. I mean, she’ll be up there with Plato and Aristotle.”

That’s Dr. Yaron Brook, who holds a PhD in Finance from the University of Texas at Austin. This provocative quote is culled from a recent interview in which he asserted that we are headed for a new dark ages unless we heed Rand’s wisdom. If we do not, “the next renaissance will begin when her books are rediscovered after 1,000 years of darkness.”

Brook is the director of the Ayn Rand Institute, the largest Objectivist organization, with a budget in the millions and political links to the Tea Party movement."

The full article is to be found here: http://www.rotman.uwo.ca/the-system-that-wasnt-there-ayn-rands-failed-philosophy-and-why-it-matters/

A good summary of her "philosophy" is also here: http://www.owl232.net/rand5.htm

As a disclaimer, I have not read any of her books, as a teenager in Russia, I read Kant and Nietzsche. I did try to read her Atlas Shrugged when I made it over the Atlantic to try and understand the popularity, but it is simply rubbish. However, I do see its massive appeal - it explains to an average person in a strong passionate language why the system in place is "the best of the best".

To claim that an individual is purely objective is to rob people of all emotions. There are people who live with no emotions and purely to satisfy their needs, they are called sociopaths and it is considered a medical condition.

references:

Humer, M. (n.d.). Critique of "The Objectivist Ethics" Retrieved May 31, 2016, from http://www.owl232.net/rand5.htm

McGinnis, N. (2012, August 25). The System that Wasn’t There: Ayn Rand’s Failed Philosophy (and why it matters) -Nicholas McGinnis. Retrieved May 31, 2016, from http://www.rotman.uwo.ca/the-system-that-wasnt-there-ayn-rands-failed-philosophy-and-why-it-matters/

 

it explains to an average person in a strong passionate language why the system in place is "the best of the best"

they are called sociopaths and it is considered a medical condition.

Too funny (and sad at the same time). Very well said.

 

It always strikes me as interesting that when someone wants to keep what they have worked for it is greedy and mean, but when someone wants what someone else has worked for to be taken away and given to them it is social justice.

Nobody is saying that or at least I'm not. What I'm saying is company "owners" or what ever they call themselves that refuse to treat the people working for them with dignity and respect by paying a living wage while keeping as much as possible for themselves is wrong. Pitting workers against themselves to have a job paying the smallest amount possible can't be good for any one but the guy at the top. That's justice?

If Rand's philosophy was around back in the start of civilization we would still be living in caves or wood huts. NO ONE gets in their position of leadership/wealth solely on their own. Some where along the way some one helps. Be it an inheritance of money, something they learn in school, a loan to start a business, or the roads and other infrastructure to sell their product, some one else helped.

Using Rand who at best was a novelist as the be all to pattern your life on is dumb, at least to me. Makes as much sense as patterning your life on a Scrooge McDuck comic. Rand is to capitalism as Isis is to Islam. A fringe idea that is embraced by followers not leaders, people to small to stand up for what is right in society. (rant over)