Thats a toy lol mine are 800 to 1000 amps 480 3 phase

 

My apologies.
This relay is controlling a bending sequence function on a powered press machine. Unfortunately it is a uniquely designed piece of equipment by a long departed predecessor.
Essentially upon pressing the start button, the machine applies a fold to a piece of sheet steel. Once the first bend is completed, it moves along via a pneumatic cylinder to the next position. Here it is supposed to operate the second fold, however this relay sticks. Tapping it ever so slightly initiates the second bend and completion of the sequence.
Inspecting the internals of this relay shows a row of three internal relays, of which two are blackened and have seen better days. An external inspection has ruled out possible repair owing to the internal relays connected to the circuit board being obsolete. I have attached another image showing the entire cabinet.

Hello,

If this is a mechanical problem, you may be able to take the relay itself apart and find out what is sticking. Perhaps some dielectric grease or spray would solve the problem for a long time to come.
Relays have moving parts and that means friction and possibly deformation. If the contacts are corroded, maybe gently cleaning them may help or a very gentle pass with a fine metal file, although I would not use sandpaper or diamond file. The moving part pivot points could need a little grease or spray. I would use only dielectric grease or dielectric spray.

If not, it would be interesting to mount a small solenoid and have it activate at the proper time to gently 'tap' the relay. That may work for a while.

 

Like I posted his smart relay may not even be bad it’s not the only place a problem can’t be he has off board switches that go bad way more then the smart relay

 

Like I posted his smart relay may not even be bad it’s not the only place a problem can’t be he has off board switches that go bad way more then the smart relay

Hi,

I guess that is possible, what I focused on was the fact that when he tapped the relay it started to work normally. That may indicate a bad relay as I have seen this happen many times before. Not definitive, but surely suggestive.

 

Lose wire two could be I just fixed a switch that had the wire broken they been tapping relay to plus the switch was on the door to turn it all off it was hand on door while tapping that was tuning it on and off tap the door moved wire moved

 

Thank you all for your help and information on this. Currently waiting for the relay to be returned after external inspection. Once back my aim is to try and clean up the contacts within the board-mounted relays to see if it prolongs the life of the unit. Failing this, I will look to replace with the help of the information provided by yourselves.
Whilst I believe in its design this is a 'safety relay', looking at its position within the machines circuit, I am leaning more towards it simply being a convenient switch that allows for activation once a certain set of sensors have been activated. History suggests it may have even been 'what was lying around' at the time of the machines creation that happens to do the job perfectly.
I will keep you posted.
Thanks again and kind regards.

 

"being a convenient switch that allows for activation once a certain set of sensors have been activated"

Those are the conditions where a 'safety relay' (electronic today) system is normally used, so be sure, if it needs to be replaced, it's with a similar system.
https://www.pilz.com/en-US/support/lexicon/articles/072106

 

In post #6 the TS refers to "two internal relays blackened" and a third relay evidently OK. While exact replacements may not be available it is quite likely that equivalent relays would be available,and that the existing module could be repaired. At that point I suggest adding external fuses, rated for less that the relay contacts current rating, in series with whatever circuits the damaged relays would be controlling, to avoid it happening again.
In addition, whatever caused the failure damage will need to be corrected. THAT may require quite a bit of troubleshooting. OR it might be very obvious.

 

I am looking for some assistance with a safety relay. The image attached shows a relay we currently have which is pretty old now. It is intermittently sticking and I wish to replace this. Unfortunately an exact replacement is no longer available so I am wondering what I can replace this with which will be suitable?

You could seek out the local rep for one of the popular makes and see what they suggest as a replacement , Pilz would be one of the first on my list to contact.

 

i would advise against repairing existing unit. not only it is old but charred relays may have damaged board as well, which also can happen by unskilled repair attempts etc. replacement relays will be typically $30-80 each. that is close to price of replacement module. and TS was having hard time even with shown schematics of buttons with NO abd NC contacts. besides, this is a safety device and any tampering is of course prohibited. and given that this can mean life or death for someone, i would say it is not worth to pursue this route, just get replacement or substitute unit.

call local electrical supplier, each of them will have at least one product line that cover this. (Pilz, Schmersal, Banner, AB, Omron/Sti, Murr, Phoenix...).

I would probably pick Murr because they are really nice and low cost ($100USD)
3000-33113-3020030

but whatever floats your boat:
https://www.pilz.com/en-CA/eshop/Re...lays/Two-hand-monitoring/c/0010000200700480FS
https://products.schmersal.com/en_C...ontrol-panels-to-en-iso-13851-1000074783.html
https://www.rockwellautomation.com/...lty-safety-relays/safety-relays-two-hand.html
https://ca.wiautomation.com/en/phoenix-contact/drives-motors-circuits-protection/2963983


or shop online:
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...wo-hand_safety_control_relays/bg5933-22-61-24

or get complete kit that includes opto touch buttons
https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/banner-engineering-corporation/ATK-VR81Q/12418029?utm_adgroup=&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PMax Product_Low ROAS Categories&utm_term=&productid=12418029&utm_content=&utm_id=go_cmp-20291741422_adg-_ad-__dev-c_ext-_prd-12418029_sig-EAIaIQobChMIq__h6_-piQMVSDgIBR1olwgLEAQYASABEgIOXPD_BwE&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq__h6_-piQMVSDgIBR1olwgLEAQYASABEgIOXPD_BwE

 

i would advise against repairing existing unit. not only it is old but charred relays may have damaged board as well, which also can happen by unskilled repair attempts etc. replacement relays will be typically $30-80 each. that is close to price of replacement module. and TS was having hard time even with shown schematics of buttons with NO abd NC contacts. besides, this is a safety device and any tampering is of course prohibited. and given that this can mean life or death for someone, i would say it is not worth to pursue this route, just get replacement or substitute unit.

call local electrical supplier, each of them will have at least one product line that cover this. (Pilz, Schmersal, Banner, AB, Omron/Sti, Murr, Phoenix...).

I would probably pick Murr because they are really nice and low cost ($100USD)
3000-33113-3020030

but whatever floats your boat:
https://www.pilz.com/en-CA/eshop/Re...lays/Two-hand-monitoring/c/0010000200700480FS
https://products.schmersal.com/en_C...ontrol-panels-to-en-iso-13851-1000074783.html
https://www.rockwellautomation.com/...lty-safety-relays/safety-relays-two-hand.html
https://ca.wiautomation.com/en/phoenix-contact/drives-motors-circuits-protection/2963983


or shop online:
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...wo-hand_safety_control_relays/bg5933-22-61-24

or get complete kit that includes opto touch buttons
https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/banner-engineering-corporation/ATK-VR81Q/12418029?utm_adgroup=&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PMax Product_Low ROAS Categories&utm_term=&productid=12418029&utm_content=&utm_id=go_cmp-20291741422_adg-_ad-__dev-c_ext-_prd-12418029_sig-EAIaIQobChMIq__h6_-piQMVSDgIBR1olwgLEAQYASABEgIOXPD_BwE&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq__h6_-piQMVSDgIBR1olwgLEAQYASABEgIOXPD_BwE

NO WAY WOULD I SUGGEST ANY EXCEPT A QUITE SKILLED Worker to even touch the module. I have seen a few thousands of dollars of equipment turned into scrap by the unskilled-not-even-hobby-class wannabe techs hired by some organizations. There should be a legal process to recover damages from those who represent that they know what they are doing, when actually they are totally clueless, can't read a schematic, and are unable to even follow a written test sequence.

 

In post #6 the TS refers to "two internal relays blackened" and a third relay evidently OK. While exact replacements may not be available it is quite likely that equivalent relays would be available,and that the existing module could be repaired. At that point I suggest adding external fuses, rated for less that the relay contacts current rating, in series with whatever circuits the damaged relays would be controlling, to avoid it happening again.
In addition, whatever caused the failure damage will need to be corrected. THAT may require quite a bit of troubleshooting. OR it might be very obvious.

Hi,

Yeah, or redesign to make sure the relays are not overtaxed during normal use. Not everyone knows how to spec a relay for a given application, unfortunately for consumers.

 

that is where contact expansion comes in.... one safety module with whatever function can drive something bigger (contactors), like in post #9. and each circuit will need own overcurrent protection of course.

 

My unstated point was based on the guess that the system had worked correctly for quite a while and then all at once failed. I realize now that was indeed a guess and not a stated fact.
Of course, no details about the failure were given, such as damage to the machine some place, such as being hit by a forklift or some other vehicle. Those events do some times happen in small plants that OSHA never knows about and never visits. I did make a service call to repair a malfunctioning hydraulic press at such a plant once. I discovered that none of the press control system circuit resembled the documentation, in addition to the controls cabinet being rather damaged. The foreman explained that yes, a forklift truck had hit the cabinet, but that it had been rewired after "the fire" had damaged that part of the plant. I examined the hydraulics, which was what I had been called to investigate, and suggested electrical repairs, which I had not been called to look at.
(YES, I am also a bit experienced in non-electrical stuff)