I know there are some fans here, who wants to discuss Robert Heinlein?

I have been driving back and forth from Houston to DFW every week for the past month and listening to Heinlein audiobooks in transit. I started with Stranger in a Strange Land, then The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and now I'm listening to Time Enough for Love. I had planned on Starship Troopers next. I'm not going in any particular order, just the order in which the Audible app advertises them after I finish one.

I'm not sure if I'll make it to Starship Troopers because I'm not sure if I'll finish Time Enough for Love. No spoilers, in case I decide to finish it, but I'm at the part just before Lazarus Long is about to embark on his first time travel experiment, and is currently being begged by his cloned 11-12 y/o twin daughter-sisters to impregnate them like he has done for all the other female relatives in their household, and after complimenting them on their their budding tits (which they invite him to kiss) he confides that the only thing holding him back is the depraved irrational old testament dogma that he was indoctrinated into (and damaged by) as a child. He has no problem sleeping with children or relatives but apparently the combination thereof is where he draws the line... (or does he? Something tells me they may yet seduce him).

This is turning into a weird infusion of sci-fi and a "romance novel" (text porn) like the ones that my grandma used to read, starring Marty McFly from Back to The Future merged with the Dos Equis Most Interesting Man in the World, written by that creepy old bachelor down the street who sits on the porch all day hoping for an opportunity to watch little girls play.

Reading (listening to) this book puts a spotlight on some themes (anarchy, homosexuality, polygamy, hedonism, incest, unconventional gender roles, Et al.) common to but subdued in the first two books, which at the time I thought were just part of the story (how Heinlein thought the future would look, based on extrapolation of trends) but now I am almost certain are part of Heinlein (how he thought the future should look, based on his own bias). He's just spent so much time in this book on these topics kicking a dead horse that I don't see any way around that conclusion. These aren't just supporting details any more, they are the story. The first two books had me envisioning him as a genius storyteller with an uncanny finger on the pulse of the future, but this one is shattering the pedestal I was in the process of putting him on. This is trash and if I finish it, it will only be because I'm a sucker for the sunk cost fallacy.

Does anyone who knows anything about his personal life want to weigh in on these themes I pointed out? Was he a bisexual anarchist, incongruously both a feminist and a womanizer, and in an open marriage with his own pre-teen sister? How did he know enough about AI in 1966 to convince me that The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was written 50-odd years later than that? He seemed very informed on technical matters, like he must have worked with cutting edge technology in addition to being a writer. What was his second profession if he had one? Could those who were around when these books were first published weigh in on how they were received by readers? Was there a lot of hate? I can envision book clubs and prayer groups boycotting in front of book stores and libraries to keep Time Enough for Love off the shelves as if it were The Communist Manifesto... but at the same time it was 1973 so maybe there was an equal number of Free Love types there to support the opposite just because it was the opposite.

I did start to do a little digging on Heinlein but I kept running into spoilers so I abandoned it. That's why I am asking here (and also because I crave conversation), so if it's possible to discuss without giving away anything from books I haven't read, please do so. Please recommend your favorite of his books.

 

https://www.heinleinsociety.org/robert-a-heinlein-a-biography/
Bio and more.

 

I was turned onto Heinlein by a friend of mine who gave me Rocket Ship Galileo in junior high. That was a watershed event for me because, before that, I did virtually no pleasure reading, and after that I became a rather voracious consumer of, eventually, many different genres. I had a similar reaction to you -- it seemed like the book could have been written very recently (although the Nazi's-on-the-moon part had me scratching my head until I looked at the copyright and saw that it was 1947). Of course, if I were to read it for the first time today, I'm sure I would find much of the plot to be hilariously absurd, but for someone in seventh or eight grade, it seemed to make perfect sense.

I then started buying up his other books as money and time permitted. In those days, that meant going to places like Walden Books are B Dalton, Bookseller in the mall. The "money and time" seldom came as a package, plus, it quickly became rare to find a book of his at the bookstore I hadn't already read (I didn't know about some of the amazing used-book stores that existed in Denver at the time). So I was still reading new-to-me books of his even after I graduated from high school. I remember getting off work about midnight one night, going home, and sitting in a recliner reading Tunnel in the Sky nonstop.

Go forward a couple of years and I come across a copy of Friday at the store. I start reading it and almost immediately found myself looking at the cover several times to convince myself that this was actually, supposedly, written by Robert A. Heinlein. It was so out of line with everything I had ever read by him because it started off with a rape scene. I still enjoyed the book, but it opened my eyes that there was more to Heinlein than I was previously aware of. Not long after that I learned about The Tattered Cover bookstore and picked up several books of his that I had never heard of, including The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Stranger in a Strange Land. I enjoyed the first, but could not get into the latter -- still don't like it. It was also about this time that an older friend of mine, who was big-time into science fiction fandom, made me aware of his "boys novels" that were aimed at teenage boys and that I had been unwittingly reading because those were the books that the mall bookstores tended to stock.

His non-juvenile books tended to push a lot of boundaries in his approach to speculative fiction (a phrase he coined). He would invent some technology, and then ask himself how the existence of that technology might influence not only what people could do, but how they would come to think and behave, including socially, in ways that might only be related at some remove. He definitely had quite a few elements such as you mentioned regarding religion and relationships. One of his commonly used themes was to consider various taboos and restrictions, many of them religious, that presumably had their roots in practical considerations of the time they evolved but that, in his universe, had been rendered pointless by technological advances. Some of these were sexual norms, but others were dietary or something else. Would those taboos be dispensed with, or would they be retained unaltered, or would they hang on but change? What effect would that have on society and religion? Would religions fight to defend and hang on to their most cherished taboos, or would they find a way to change with the times. I don't know to what degree those represented his personal views, and to what degree they merely represented speculations intended to be provocative enough to boost sales. In lots of ways, these are themes that we see going on in the world around us -- and they were going on in his time and in the Victorian era and long before.

One theme that is pretty evident in a number of his books is a pretty stereotypical portrayal of women, at least in general, despite many of his key characters being strong, capable women. Some people have claimed that this is a reflection of his misogyny, but I don't know that I would go that far -- more likely a reflection of the cultural sexism of his day. I also think that people latch onto quotes from some of his characters and claim that reveals Heinlein's attitudes, when those characters are often being used as foils to make a very opposite point. People also claim that his works reflect racist attitudes, but the only one I can recall anyone having a specific problem with (in discussions with me) is Farnham's Freehold. But, once again, his work is littered with the opposite. At a time when the cultural norms of the day made it a rarity to have characters that were minorities, he had many of them. On thing he deliberately did on numerous occasions, trying to force people to confront their prejudices, would be to only reveal a character's color after the reader had a firm grasp on the kind of person they were, at which point they would discover that this character they had grown to admire and respect was a minority. I don't know how much effect this tactic actually had.

In his later years he started trying to tie many of the universes he had created together. Given that those universes were never meant to intersect, they required some rather interesting plot antics on his part. Some of it was quite clever, but some of it was clearly forced into existence for the mere purpose of having it and left me shaking my head.

One of his books, Expanded Universe, is an autobiography of sorts. It's a collection of short stories and essays, but with very interesting forewords for most that are quite entertaining and revealing.

 

https://www.heinleinsociety.org/robert-a-heinlein-a-biography/
Bio and more.

Thanks, that was excellent. No spoilers.

 

it seemed like the book could have been written very recently (although the Nazi's-on-the-moon part had me scratching my head until I looked at the copyright and saw that it was 1947). Of course, if I were to read it for the first time today, I'm sure I would find much of the plot to be hilariously absurd, but for someone in seventh or eight grade, it seemed to make perfect sense.

Yeah there are some absurd things for sure but also some absurd things have actually happened in real life since then. It's interesting to see how close he got on some aspects and how far off on others, and consider how close those absurd things could have come to reality if one were to go back in time and change one or two little things. It helps to have the ability to switch off the analytical part of the brain and just be entertained. I have limited capacity for this so watching things like the Transformers movies is painful, but in Heinlein's case I can temper it by keeping in mind that it was written decades before I was, and one can perceive future possibilities with only so much clarity. I might be able to apply this liberally enough even to enjoy the "boys' novels" although I would prefer to put off reading those for a while.

His non-juvenile books tended to push a lot of boundaries in his approach to speculative fiction (a phrase he coined). He would invent some technology, and then ask himself how the existence of that technology might influence not only what people could do, but how they would come to think and behave, including socially, in ways that might only be related at some remove. He definitely had quite a few elements such as you mentioned regarding religion and relationships. One of his commonly used themes was to consider various taboos and restrictions, many of them religious, that presumably had their roots in practical considerations of the time they evolved but that, in his universe, had been rendered pointless by technological advances. Some of these were sexual norms, but others were dietary or something else. Would those taboos be dispensed with, or would they be retained unaltered, or would they hang on but change? What effect would that have on society and religion? Would religions fight to defend and hang on to their most cherished taboos, or would they find a way to change with the times.

This exactly the attitude in which I understood the first two books, without needing any foreword or preface about it. It felt like he was exploring the possibilities in the manner you described. But in Time Enough for Love it feels like that got turned on its head and he used the premise of "this is a different time and place with different technology" as an excuse to write something raunchy that otherwise would have caused a well justified kerfuffle. I guess whether or not kerfuffle still is justified comes down to whether or not you think he pulled it off. I'm leaning strongly toward not. Have you read this book? Is it worth finishing or should I move on? Maybe come back to it later after I have a better understanding?

One theme that is pretty evident in a number of his books is a pretty stereotypical portrayal of women, at least in general, despite many of his key characters being strong, capable women. Some people have claimed that this is a reflection of his misogyny, but I don't know that I would go that far -- more likely a reflection of the cultural sexism of his day. I also think that people latch onto quotes from some of his characters and claim that reveals Heinlein's attitudes, when those characters are often being used as foils to make a very opposite point. People also claim that his works reflect racist attitudes, but the only one I can recall anyone having a specific problem with (in discussions with me) is Farnham's Freehold.

The portrayal of women is something I can easily look past with the "keeping in mind that it was written decades before I was" clause. I actually find it entertaining how he thought that would look like, with all these hyper intelligent, competent, empowered women, running around his universe keeping the lights on but still lining up to be smacked on the ass by Lazarus Long. I haven't seen anything that makes me suspect he was a racist.

In his later years he started trying to tie many of the universes he had created together. Given that those universes were never meant to intersect, they required some rather interesting plot antics on his part. Some of it was quite clever, but some of it was clearly forced into existence for the mere purpose of having it and left me shaking my head.

Oh lord. I hope it's not as bad Marvel comics' attempt to do the same. The kids and I just watched the Guardians of the Galaxy marathon ending in the new movie and there were unexplained events between #2 and #3 that you had to have watched some other ridiculous Marvel movie to understand. Since I hadn't, it distracted me from the whole movie.

One of his books, Expanded Universe, is an autobiography of sorts. It's a collection of short stories and essays, but with very interesting forewords for most that are quite entertaining and revealing.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

“Time Enough for Love” is my favorite Heinlien novel. I’ve purchased several copies as I have worn out several by re-reading multiple times. In line with its title, it explored many aspects of love to me.

Although classified as science fiction, Heinlien often based his stories where technology is secondary and culture is the primary theme. As affected by technology. So many of his plot elements based on sexuality and more’s, are very similar to a sci-fi story based on a premise of “what if we could time travel?”.

In My Humble Opinion…

 

“Time Enough for Love” is my favorite Heinlien novel. I’ve purchased several copies as I have worn out several by re-reading multiple times. In line with its title, it explored many aspects of love to me.

Although classified as science fiction, Heinlien often based his stories where technology is secondary and culture is the primary theme. As affected by technology. So many of his plot elements based on sexuality and more’s, are very similar to a sci-fi story based on a premise of “what if we could time travel?”.

In My Humble Opinion…

Well I respect you for sticking up for it after I was so critical of it. The pedophilia & incest stuff doesn't bother you? Is that really an attribute of an advanced society? I get his point; with every member of a society having access to gene testing, a sound understanding of biology, and a sound understanding of who actually, scientifically, is or is not safe to pair with, the taboo of incest really would become obsolete. But IMO he went too far. Kids are off limits and that's a taboo that will reflect societal regression if we ever abandon.

Even when it wasn't literal kids, on more than one occasion the main character was sleeping with females to whom he was a father figure or were beholden to him in some way. Not very admirable IMO. Notice I said "main character" and not "hero" of the story - it is left up to the reader to determine whether the character is "bad" or "good" and shouldn't necessarily reflect on the author, but in this case I can't help feeling that it actually does, because of how he goes on and on about it ad nauseum and how it emerges as a theme spanning other books.

 

The pedophilia & incest stuff doesn't bother you?

Is that really an attribute of an advanced society?

It is science fiction. He describes a society where his concept of pedophilia and incest doesn’t exist as commonly as it does in our world. You justify that yourself. I enjoy his thought experiment and don’t limit myself to the fear that he actually believes in those in his fictitious world concepts.

And what point of view defines what an advanced society is? Heinlien isn’t really proposing an advanced society; he is proposing an alternative society in which he has manipulated the rules to investigate what may happen.

Don’t mistake me. I totally respect and understand your reactions. And in no way would I justify pedophilia or incest in the real world.

P.S. Do you believe Wile E. Coyote actually falls off a cliff and lands in a puff of dust

 

It is science fiction.
[...]
P.S. Do you believe Wile E. Coyote actually falls off a cliff and lands in a puff of dust

I think "it's just science fiction, bro" is as good a defense as "it's just a prank, bro" and if Wile E. Coyote was depicted copulating with a minor (yes, even in a cartoon), whoever was responsible for it could go to jail.

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity

Section 1466A of Title 18, United State Code, makes it illegal for any person to knowingly produce, distribute, receive, or possess with intent to transfer or distribute visual representations, such as drawings, cartoons, or paintings that appear to depict minors engaged in sexually explicit conduct and are deemed obscene.

As for whether or not it is right and just that someone could go to jail for that, I'm more on Heinlein's side.

Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid)

I'm not suggesting anyone burn their book, just saying he crossed a line that I consider important, a line that I thought everyone considered important, I'm surprised to find that I was wrong about that, I'm a little disappointed and not a big fan of this book.

 

It has been a LONG time (three decades?) since I read Time Enough for Love, or any of the Lazarus Long tales, so my recollections are definitely not very fresh. Overall, I recall not being overly impressed. I don't mind writers coming up with situations I find repugnant as long as there is a point (even if I end up not agreeing with it). I don't recall that being the sense that I got from that book, it struck me as being an unnecessarily salacious. Maybe there was a point and I missed it or have forgotten it.

 

I think "it's just science fiction, bro" is as good a defense as "it's just a prank, bro" and if Wile E. Coyote was depicted copulating with a minor (yes, even in a cartoon), whoever was responsible for it could go to jail.

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity

Keep in mind that that law does not apply to the written word, but is very specific and applies to "visual representations".

 

Keep in mind that that law does not apply to the written word, but is very specific and applies to "visual representations".

Yes, didn't mean to imply he broke the law, just pointing out that bringing it off the page and giving it as much life as Wile E. Coyote has, would be illegal.

 

Likewise, it was a while back when I read the Lazarus Long etc novels and even then those relationships didn't seem "ok". Apart from anything else, there's an obvious power imbalance.

 

Likewise, it was a while back when I read the Lazarus Long etc novels and even then those relationships didn't seem "ok". Apart from anything else, there's an obvious power imbalance.

Yeah and he even said in the book that he never slept with anyone that was beholden to him, and then went on to sleep with everyone that was ever beholden to him.

But whatever, it's a character. You can't hold an author accountable for the fictional actions of a fictional character. But you can accuse an author of writing things that should never have been written (and I do) and you can certainly dislike a book because of it (and I do).

I finished the book today, not sure why. He went back in time and legitimized his MFer status literally. Big surprise.

Now that I have finished it, I can review:
Trash. 1/10 stars. Do not recommend.

I decided to go ahead and continue my Heinlein foray with Starship Troopers. I will opt out of any further Lazarus Long books.

 

Yeah and he even said in the book that he never slept with anyone that was beholden to him, and then went on to sleep with everyone that was ever beholden to him.

But whatever, it's a character. You can't hold an author accountable for the fictional actions of a fictional character. But you can accuse an author of writing things that should never have been written (and I do) and you can certainly dislike a book because of it (and I do).

I finished the book today, not sure why. He went back in time and legitimized his MFer status literally. Big surprise.

Now that I have finished it, I can review:
Trash. 1/10 stars. Do not recommend.

I decided to go ahead and continue my Heinlein foray with Starship Troopers. I will opt out of any further Lazarus Long books.

Sorry, but I think that you have missed the point. And that’s the last I’m planning on saying. Hope you can enjoy some of his other novels.

 

Sorry, but I think that you have missed the point.

That's a safe bet I do that a lot. My wife can confirm.

 

I finished Starship Troopers, then went on a little Stephen King side quest and getting ready to pick out another Heinlein book. Any recommendations?

I liked Starship Troopers and actually didn't think they did too bad with the movie. I saw the movie years ago but didn't remember anything from it so it was like watching for the first time.

 

I finished Starship Troopers, then went on a little Stephen King side quest and getting ready to pick out another Heinlein book. Any recommendations?

I liked Starship Troopers and actually didn't think they did too bad with the movie. I saw the movie years ago but didn't remember anything from it so it was like watching for the first time.

Not Heinlein, but I recommend you pick a book by Dean Koontz one of these days ... The Odd Thomas series comes to mind. Or you could read By The Light Of The Moon if you're in the mood for a sci-fi mystery. He has plenty of very good books I could recommend.

 

Not Heinlein, but I recommend you pick a book by Dean Koontz one of these days ... The Odd Thomas series comes to mind. Or you could read By The Light Of The Moon if you're in the mood for a sci-fi mystery. He has plenty of very good books I could recommend.

I'm a Dean Koontz fan from way back LOL. I used to read his books while deployed, not much else would hold my attention. I said I was on a Stephen King side quest but I also worked "After Death" into the middle of it. I haven't read all of his books (not even close) but I think I read all the Odd Thomas ones. If you have any specific Dean Koontz favorites let's hear them. If I haven't read them already I'll check them out. Thanks!

 

I also worked "After Death" into the middle of it.

that's the one I'm currently reading! ... I'm at about 25% of it, lol