Not so counterfeit ICs

Thread Starter

takao21203

Joined Apr 28, 2012
3,702
Ive been reading some articles and I dont think they are really true.

First of all there is not a single uniform logo used by manufacturers.
Ive seen consumer electronics ICs with very bad quality ink printing or just a number.
Remember, genuine parts.

Also ICs you typically use are no longer used for mass market products and probably for quite a while already.

Think how many people live in China and India and how many in America.

Ten times as many. So they have their own domestic market and chinese made ICs.

How they got the blueprints is another story and as such, why it has hotels all over the globe also is another story.
Business deals were stroke in the late 1970s already, before of that rumour has it transistor radios were actually made in Japan,
assembled by hand.

Now these days whats mass produced are low nanometres pinless chips for mobile devices and gigabyte memories.

Recently I have come accross something that looked like faulty or probably forged ICs:

A batch of 2732A EPROMs that didnt program. Rubbish I tought.
But I erased them and just recently, tried the setting for the old 2732 (not 2732A) among other things the programming voltage is 25V not 21.
And, as I guessed, they programmed.

The markings are of reasonably good quality.

So statements the IC forgers dont get the logo or imprints right are nonsense. Its just not happening that way.

Also I have seen ICs that have been reworked cosmetically including some TMS9900 (no longer manufactured).
Ive got reports these do actually work.

Who would forger these? The process for these is a quite old one.
They either work or they dont.

Nonsense.

Theres even ICs made in England which I have seen some day but the factory was small and its decomissioned for a while.
Didnt find these today.

Some SN76489AN which have laser engraving, wasnt used in the days this IC was on the market AFAIK.
Doesnt look dodgy + the ICs reportedly work.

My guess is there is a much larger chinese domestic market and what we see is such ICs being sold off, including the fact the chinese apparently still use some older ICs (while our manufacturers dont).

Rest assured if theres really forged ICs certain manufacturers would go after this relatively quickly.

Im getting the feeling Ive been reading stuff written by people who dont know what theyre talking about or they just dont like China and write a piece of propaganda.

Besides myself I actually dont have so many chinese ICs, a lot of what I have is original old stock or from distributors.

Or do you agree recently EPROMS are out of fashion for PC desktops? Even desktops as such, are no longer seen in most shopping avenues.
Is this correct or not? The ICs in a laptop are not the kinds youd typically hand solder as PDIP.

In second world countries they may continue to use these for some decades to come so they are still manufactured as needed.

These 2732A might be old 2732 die put in a "fake" 2732A shell (besides they do actually work just need the algorithm for the old die).

Do you agree modern process EPROM produces a much smaller die even for larger amount of memory? Just a tiny strip.

If something isnt mass produced and expensive why should someone make efforts to counterfeit it?

For sure the two ICs here have some story to them (they are not originally genuine in terms being the same thing as their old days equivalent).
Apparently they fully work.

Is it that japanese wafer fabs have been sold off to Israelis (true story) and NEC Hitachi etc. years ago stopped making certain devices?
This was a news from a reputable source.

Id appreciate if someone with real insider knowledge shines light on these dodgy 2732A. The die is very large and they only program with the algorithm and voltage for the old 2732. Not interested in a piece of highschool homework or something made up, only in some insight from a person into the IC business.

Some months ago I showed old stock ICs (from reputeable source and know old stock from consumer electronics and by the way quite old), replies Ive got is they would be fake since the unusual imprint. Well actually it was a large PROM and they are kind of out of fashion for quite a while.

Admittedly also I find the reference to fire alarms a bit creepy. As such these manufacturers dont buy off ebay. They do schedule to have their custom IC manufactured. How do I know, as such, I have certain fire alarm IC in my inventory. You wouldnt be able to find a datasheet for these.

Such as following the fake IC articles would give you more fire safety is nothing but fearmongering and its clueless.

Its also sad Ive been browsing and researching a lot about fire regulations in England and 38% or so of battery fire alarms didnt trigger guess because the battery is empty and 25% of mains powered alarms also dont, bcz neglect. Theres such a creepy domestic situation and fake IC are the least thing to contribute to that in any kind. I havent known yet of companies using parts they buy online.

But you can find in most datasheets the information, the devices are not approved for aviation, life support nuclear and so on.
These are not sold on the open market or online. These have to be negotiated closed market.

Sure I have today tried a wireless doorbell from a cheapo store chain (I couldnt name them) and guess it almost doesnt work besides the batteries full, only from 15cm distance it triggers. Opened up the sender and guess what, shoddy soldering, a tiny pire piece breaking off the board, and apparently, solder joints filed off flat. More looks like sabotage to me (on purpose). Ive had several faulty electronics from them, USB ports breaking off after two weeks, plain not working, and so on.

Honestly I wouldnt buy a fire alarm from them, considering my experience. I tried a motion detection alarm a while ago, it went off by itself a few times a day, piece of crap.

These experiences of mine are real world and Id give testimony in court that they were real. I wouldnt make it up aka Blaire airport spider or something like that.

Ive found behind their supplies theres a hudge multinational distributor/wholesale broker. One time I sent enquiry about obvious crap being sold, never got a reply. Again I cant name them here, but I would in front of a court. For the time being I have no reason to work against them tough it makes me sad they apparently distribute tons of crap day by day for years. I still buy office supplies from them and my new laser printer apparently eats this kind of paper.

Actuallly theyre quite a mixed basket with some good bargains too. But for sure I wouldnt buy a fire alarm or smoke detector from them (recall they actually have smoke detectors). Today Ive put batteries in the wireless doorbell and didnt work as well strange style of work can be seen inside the sender.

Maybe our volunteer authors would be able to write about their products? Or too shy bcz a big transnational wholesale broker is behind the operations? Enquiring a sales staff in a shop about problems with a product some time ago if these still would persist, she looked like fearing to loose her job, and just said "I dont know".

When I find these UK made ICs I will show them on the forum. There was IBM production lines in Scotland in the 1980s as well NEC for a short time prodced ICs in Ireland, but among other things, these were axed after a few years.

When theres one thing I cant stand it is highschool students who havent seen food before but now they want to tell how to use chopsticks and you couldnt use them in a certain ways well guess what Im fine eating with my fingers as such and by the moon prices in most restaurants I wouldnt give much of a sh*** Id do it if wanted to. Or these otaku freaks saying things like soy sauce isnt intended to soak the rice with it still makes me angry its years ago the stuff is cheap and you could do with it whatever you wanted to, including to use it for stir frying freely.

Its more like cooking!IMG_20170616_121825.jpg

So these 2732A dont program at 21V and my guess is these are old 2732 die, either old stock or made on old process and "forged" into a fantasy encasing. They do work when programmed at 25V.
Or maybe even professionally refurbished.

Counterfeit? What exactly is the market for these ICs nowadays (in US and Europe)?

SO heres proof for IC with perfectly fine looking logo. Its not laser engraved more like a golden tone ink but doesnt dissolve in acetone...
But something is offbeat about these IC.
 

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wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
Ive been reading some articles and I dont think they are really true.
It's not easy to tell what point(s) you are making. Maybe you can link the articles that triggered your post?

If you're suggesting that there are not counterfeit parts coming out of China, I think that will be a tough sell.
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
21,159
I've read your post three times and I'm not sure what you are getting at or why any of it is relevant. This does not affect companies that purchase parts for production since they buy from reputable sources and can return parts that fail incoming inspection. It does not affect the hobbyist who buys a few parts here and there and can afford to take the loss on low value parts that would cost more to return than to bin. I'm just a poor 'ole country boy and you're going to have to explain this in words of one syllable or less.
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,928
"A batch of 2732A EPROMs that didnt program. Rubbish I tought.
But I erased them and just recently, tried the setting for the old 2732 (not 2732A) among other things the programming voltage is 25V not 21.
And, as I guessed, they programmed.

The markings are of reasonably good quality.

So statements the IC forgers dont get the logo or imprints right are nonsense. Its just not happening that way."


I stopped there. I'm bet you could buy counterfeit/aftermarket chips and boards that exceed original specs. Don't really know. Have received the wrong part....but don't remember receiving a bad one.

I'm amazed at the quality of the "cheap stuff".
 

spinnaker

Joined Oct 29, 2009
7,830
I've read your post three times and I'm not sure what you are getting at or why any of it is relevant. This does not affect companies that purchase parts for production since they buy from reputable sources and can return parts that fail incoming inspection. It does not affect the hobbyist who buys a few parts here and there and can afford to take the loss on low value parts that would cost more to return than to bin. I'm just a poor 'ole country boy and you're going to have to explain this in words of one syllable or less.

Wow you have a lot of patience. I couldn't get through the first paragraph. :eek:
 

crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
34,285
If the part logo says it was made by a certain company and it was not, that's a counterfeit device, whether it works as advertised or not.
What more is there to be said about that?
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
21,159
If the part logo says it was made by a certain company and it was not, that's a counterfeit device, whether it works as advertised or not.
What more is there to be said about that?
I don't know many people who are forensic experts when it comes to parts and markings. "Works" is not really a workable definition. A counterfeit part may work under some conditions and not others. A true part should work under all conditions specified in the datasheet. I thought "real" counterfeit parts were empty leadframes in a plastic package which would not work under any conditions. Apparently there as many types of counterfeits as cross ties on a railroad.
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
Many counterfeit items outside of electronics are counterfeit only in the sense that they haven't paid to use the trademark. I gather that women's handbags with a designer label are a popular example. It makes sense, when there is no difference in function as far as the customer is concerned and yet a very large cost difference. That's the risk of getting your product made in China (or anywhere other than your own factory, I suppose). They can make it for themselves and compete against you using other distribution channels. A dance with the devil.
 

GopherT

Joined Nov 23, 2012
8,009
I bought a $35 "Rolax" watch for my dad in New York City about 20 years ago. The "a" was a bit messed up so most people assumed it was Rolex.

It worked fine as could be expected for $35.
 
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