Making device without the need for grounding/ earthing

Thread Starter

HkOR

Joined Nov 17, 2023
6
energisers without having an earth?
Im looking to charge a small length of electric fencing upto about 3m only. As there is no near point for an earth to ground as is all on concrete. How could I make up a micro energiser where it could bypass earthing?
So brain storming here: materials PIC & HV generator I only require a high voltage but output at low current to shock, amps of battery voltage about 8.4v and the shock around 0.85mA. A jolt about 6kv@ 20 ma. But how do I wire for grounding. Basicallythe same as the electric shock game? Prefer to run either on lithium rechargeable battery or 3 triple a batteries.
PS assemble only for use on sheep as I have a small holding. any advice for spec greatly appreciated.
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
3,939
Run 2-wires spaced about ~3-inches apart.
Make sure that they can't touch each other under normal circumstances.
Make sure that they can be easily seen by the animals so that they will stay away from the Wires.
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Thread Starter

HkOR

Joined Nov 17, 2023
6
Run 2-wires spaced about ~3-inches apart.
Make sure that they can't touch each other under normal circumstances.
Make sure that they can be easily seen by the animals so that they will stay away from the Wires.
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Thank you, not sure I really understand? So just on a specification basis was I correct what was needed. I am hoping to get it made into a small micro unit.
 

crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
34,047
Do you mean the animals are on concrete?
If it's on normally damp soil without a vapor barrier, it may have sufficient conductivity to still carry the shock current.
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
3,939
There is no such thing as "small-Micro-Unit" when You are working with more than ~6000-Volts.
An Ignition-Coil from a Chinese-Scooter will work very well, and they're very cheap.
 

Thread Starter

HkOR

Joined Nov 17, 2023
6
Do you mean the animals are on concrete?
If it's on normally damp soil without a vapor barrier, it may have sufficient conductivity to still carry the shock current.
Yes animals on concrete but no electric there so can’t tap into any grounding Building has no electrics. So need something to do the job as a normal fence energiser would but without having to earth it. It doesn’t need to carry 6000v maybe 8.4 volts so the shock is around 0.85mA output. I’m thinking similar lines to the lightning reaction game where a group of people hold a trigger and last one gets a shock. That works on AAA batteries.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,513
What about the other side of the fence, is there soil close by?
I put one together for Deer, a PIC and a waste spark coil from a local auto wrecker.
'fires' once a second.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
17,814
What are the posts that will support the insulators and the wire??
And a very fundamental question is what is that charge on the wire going to be relative to?? A circuit, by the basic definition, has a source with two connections so as to establish a voltage between something and something else.
On top of that, the only shock that I ever got was touching a single live screw head while standing barefoot on a dry cement floor.
If you have steel fence posts into the cement then that is your "ground" connection point.
 

Thread Starter

HkOR

Joined Nov 17, 2023
6
What about the other side of the fence, is there soil close by?
I put one together for Deer, a PIC and a waste spark coil from a local auto wrecker.
'fires' once a second.
Thank you, I have put the question out there as I’ve stated there is no means of grounding and nor do I wish to run an earthing wire for a substantial distance. producing Something small and portable will be ideal.
 

LesJones

Joined Jan 8, 2017
4,172
I think the suggestion in post #2 so that the animal has to be in contact with both wires is the only solution if you are not prepared to make an earth connection. (The current path would be from one wire through the aniamal to the other wire.) This would not be as good as via earth as wet fur could privide a current path without the animal feeling any shock.

Les.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
17,814
Unless they are smart sheep I predict little success from the two-wire scheme.
And once again, what will the posts be made of? Metal, wood, or plastic?? 6 kV x 20 mA= 120 mW, not a small shock nor a small bit of power. I predict that the supporting posts will not be driven through the concrete floor, and probably not bolted to it. So if the posts extend into the local earth, there is the ground connection.
And the shock from that game is not DC, but an AC waveform. On a fence it will broadcast a fair amount of RFI. Others may object to that part.
 

Thread Starter

HkOR

Joined Nov 17, 2023
6
Unless they are smart sheep I predict little success from the two-wire scheme.
And once again, what will the posts be made of? Metal, wood, or plastic?? 6 kV x 20 mA= 120 mW, not a small shock nor a small bit of power. I predict that the supporting posts will not be driven through the concrete floor, and probably not bolted to it. So if the posts extend into the local earth, there is the ground connection.
And the shock from that game is not DC, but an AC waveform. On a fence it will broadcast a fair amount of RFI. Others may object to that part.
Thanks, apologies ill explain Clearer. so imagine a small enclosure to house my cheeky pet sheep or my mini Shetland! ive made a gateway from pvc fabric and sewn faraday conducting fabric to It. So im Hanging it between two gate posts (wooden) with fence insulators on. Only talking 1m2 area of fabric, not miles of electric fencing. So I’m only talking a small output is necessary for these escape con artists as i know they respect it already! So I’m hoping to make a small device which potentially could with tracks on the back of a PCB board fixed to the fabric and then with a transformer and use of a PP3 connector or rechargeable lithium battery will make more power to convert to max 200v like starting a car one coil to another. Like someone mentioned earlier. So I’m thinking AC waveform will work like the game and eliminate grounding. Please excuse my naivety I am very much a novice. Just looking for direct spec of what I need if I am missing anything?
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
3,939
200-Volts requires Bare-Skin to cause a Shocking-Sensation,
Fur will not conduct any significant Current, it is an "Insulator",
the Voltage must be high enough to "jump" between
the Fur-Hairs to the Skin to cause a Shocking-Sensation.
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LesJones

Joined Jan 8, 2017
4,172
You are missing the point that voltage without current will not give you an electric shock. Have you never seen the demonstration of someone standing on an insulated platform with a hand on the top of a van de graff generator which produces about 250000 volts. They do not get a shock. The school I went to had one to do this demonstration.

Les.
 

Thread Starter

HkOR

Joined Nov 17, 2023
6
200-Volts requires Bare-Skin to cause a Shocking-Sensation,
Fur will not conduct any significant Current, it is an "Insulator",
the Voltage must be high enough to "jump" between
the Fur-Hairs to the Skin to cause a Shocking-Sensation.
.
.
.
Appreciate that but it does work on them. They touch it via their noses! no hair on those areas! There is enough AC for a reaction like the shock game I mentioned. i just need to understand how to bypass grounding as it does in the game! That’s the question.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
17,814
If the creatures are standing on concrete that was poured on bare ground, then there is a "ground" connection. So do those wooden gate posts extend into the ground??? Or are the bottom parts set into cement? Or are are two gate posts outside the enclosure? If the PVC cloth is the gate side, what are the other 3 sides?
The only way to deliver a shock without an ohmic second connection is to have an RF voltage present at a high enough potential so that body capacitence to the surroundings will allow enough current to flow to deliver a shock. You are not going to achieve that power level using a small battery, or even a medium sized battery.
And the pulse from an automotive spark coil, in an automotive system, is a minimum of 2000 volts. With a good CD ignition system it can be more like 10,000 volts.
And now we know that the pets reside in a 3 sided shelter with a gateway on the fourth side. If there is bare earth, or grass, or shrubbery, on at least one side or corner then a thin ground stake can be employed. "nor do I wish to run an earthing wire for a substantial distance." So how long is a substantial distance??It would need to extend from a gatepost to the nearest exposed soil.
 
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