Interesting article gives whole new meaning to "Electronic Warfare"

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
9,984
Russia went on ITAR restrictions in Mar 2021, before that they could buy just about anything on the market not directly defense related. Yes, I'm tested frequently about ITAR restrictions on products and information.
https://home.kpmg/us/en/home/insigh...xports-defense-articles-defense-services.html
https://www.exportsolutionsinc.com/resources/blog/russia-is-now-in-itar-126-1-what-does-that-mean/
 

k1ng 1337

Joined Sep 11, 2020
584
Hopefully if this is all Russia can muster against a smaller foe, that might be an indicator they are not as powerful as they appear to be. It doesn't look like they are doing too good strategically. As I understand it they are using a lot of older technology and are behind in R&D. GOOD.
 

Thread Starter

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,292
Not that so much as that even down to the individual soldier's equipment electronics are now involved. Night vision, communications, navigation, and probably even his wristwatch! Sure it was an open market but even then, there were plenty of offshore non-US sources of US chips. One good EMP would virtually make them a non-combatant!
 
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nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
9,984
Not that so much as that even down to the individual soldier's equipment electronics are now involved. Night vision, communications, navigation, and probably even his wristwatch! Sure it was an open market but even then, there were plenty of offshore non-US sources of US chips. One good EMP would virtually make them a non-combatant!
The problem with Russia is bad leadership and tactics. Even with the best equipment they would still be running for cover.

 
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strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
5,971
It highlights, he said, a “total dependence on western technology” in applications of “integrated chips sets in key sensitive working parts of Russian weapon systems - targeting, navigation, communications and execution of the weapon."

It also shows the “breakdown or non-existent U.S. controlsin International Traffic in Arms Regulations, “both supporting investigations when found in foreign weapons.”

On May 11, Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo told a Senate hearing that sanctions against Russia were forcing it to seek alternate sources of key components.

“We have reports from Ukrainians that when they find Russian military equipment on the ground, it’s filled with semiconductors that they took out of dishwashers and refrigerators,Raimondo testified, who recently met with Ukraine’s prime minister.

While components found in appliances, for instance, are harder to prevent falling into the wrong hands, U.S. officials, Parish said, do have the authority to prevent shipments of those dual-use chips if they consider the application to have critical military uses.
"Dual use!" HA! o_O
I think whoever is doing the investigation, or at least whoever is reporting on it, completely missed the point of the "dishwashers and refrigerators" comment they regurgitated. They need to do a little research and understand what they're talking about before they say more.

If you're going to imply some negligence against U.S. semiconductor manufacturers over this, you might as well find out where the Russians got the metal in their wings, the cloth in their chairs, and the plastic in their buttons, and go after all those folks too. Nobody should escape judgement! What reckless maniac allows their "dual use" leather to wind up in Russian combat boots?!
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
9,984
"Dual use!" HA! o_O
I think whoever is doing the investigation, or at least whoever is reporting on it, completely missed the point of the "dishwashers and refrigerators" comment they regurgitated. They need to do a little research and understand what they're talking about before they say more.

If you're going to imply some negligence against U.S. semiconductor manufacturers over this, you might as well find out where the Russians got the metal in their wings, the cloth in their chairs, and the plastic in their buttons, and go after all those folks too. Nobody should escape judgement! What reckless maniac allows their "dual use" leather to wind up in Russian combat boots?!
I suspect there's no negligence against U.S. semiconductor manufacturers on this. I'm not kidding when I say the subject of Russian exports of even old technology in the semi biz has been a high priority since long before the Ukraine invasion.
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
5,971
I suspect there's no negligence against U.S. semiconductor manufacturers on this. I'm not kidding when I say the subject of Russian exports of even old technology in the semi biz has been a high priority since long before the Ukraine invasion.
They will get the chips no matter what. There is no way to stop it regardless of sanctions or anything. Maybe sanctions will make it harder for them, but not by much I expect. I was going to say "the only way to keep these chips out of Russian hands is to stop making them." But no, not even then...




Screenshot_20220528-000045_Chrome.jpg




I wonder where the stones landed that were lobbed at Atmel and Micrel?


Screenshot_20220528-000112_Chrome.jpg
 

Thread Starter

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,292
the "dishwashers and refrigerators" comment they regurgitated.
When I saw that one in the news, I immediately pegged it for propaganda as it seems to abound. Even since the 60's the proliferation of reliance on electronics on the battlefield has become unbelievable. In the 60's the "ground pounders" had electronic communications and the artillery was getting into the missile game with Surface to Air Missile installations (don't think the shoulder fired ones were there yet). The only "Drones" were massive remote-controlled targets. Now instead of sending out armed scouting patrols just send a small camera bearing quadcopter.

1965 Naval Drone "Snoopy" used for anti-submarine operations.
1653715249629.png
 
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strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
5,971
When I saw that one in the news, I immediately pegged it for propaganda as it seems to abound. Even since the 60's the proliferation of reliance on electronics on the battlefield has become unbelievable. In the 60's the "ground pounders" had electronic communications and the artillery was getting into the missile game with Surface to Air Missile installations (don't think the shoulder fired ones were there yet). The only "Drones" were massive remote-controlled targets. Now instead of sending out armed scouting patrols just send a small camera bearing quadcopter.
Propaganda, maybe (probably?) - I don't know. My point was that any of the chips they mentioned really could have been pulled out of a dishwasher or a refrigerator. This technology is everywhere and in anything. There is no "dual use" to anything, if I understand correctly what they meant by that (able to be used in a microwave or a Russian fighter jet). These electronic components are infinite use. If Intel is culpable for one of their chips being in a Russian jet then so is the manufacturer of the wire, the steel, everything. I don't understand why they're going after these semiconductor manufacturers. It seems to me whoever wrote this thinks Intel, Atmel (RIP), Micrel (RIP), NXP, Digilent, Altera (RIP), AMD, TI, Linear, et.-(everyone)-al. is out here leaking missile guidance system dev kits to the Russians. They obviously don't get that the chips they had in their flip phones back in 2002 could just as readily be used for military purposes by any country in 2022.
 

k1ng 1337

Joined Sep 11, 2020
584
When I saw that one in the news, I immediately pegged it for propaganda as it seems to abound. Even since the 60's the proliferation of reliance on electronics on the battlefield has become unbelievable. In the 60's the "ground pounders" had electronic communications and the artillery was getting into the missile game with Surface to Air Missile installations (don't think the shoulder fired ones were there yet). The only "Drones" were massive remote-controlled targets. Now instead of sending out armed scouting patrols just send a small camera bearing quadcopter.
Aside from nuclear weapons, I suspect drones and long distance surveillance will dominate the battlefield of future generations. Civilians are especially powerless. We seem to be at the tipping point to where war is becoming fully automated. Kind of like that star trek episode where they end up simulating their wars and vaporizing the losers..
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
5,971
Aside from nuclear weapons, I suspect drones and long distance surveillance will dominate the battlefield of future generations. Civilians are especially powerless. We seem to be at the tipping point to where war is becoming fully automated. Kind of like that star trek episode where they end up simulating their wars and vaporizing the losers..
Wow, I was just having this conversation with my brother a couple of weeks ago and I have the opposite opinion about civilians being powerless. I think drones (consumer drones) could help turn the tide of any ground war fought going forward. The Russians should be afraid of drones for the same reason the FAA is. Any yahoo with an inclination could strap a bomb to one and attack unseen from a mile away with his cell phone. Drone swarms. How would a convoy protect themselves from a swarm of exploding drones? Imagine IEDs that don't just haphazardly explode as you drive by, but instead lift off from behind a rock on the side of the road, fly through your windshield, and explode in your face.

Yes, technology makes the bad guys scarier but it empowers everyone who has it, which is pretty much everyone these days. Surveillance works both ways, word travels fast. No more waiting for word of troop movements from a frantic horseman who will probably never make it.

The rest of your post, I don't know what I think about it. Plausible? I don't really disagree about the tipping point but I don't see how simulated wars will be very gratifying for anyone or otherwise effective toward any ends. I think it will be more about attacking infrastructure remotely. Not so many bullets fired, but whole lot of people unable to go to work and run on the hamster wheels that turn the gears of their country. How long can any industrialized country run without industry? I think if our grid went down for more than week we'd just start killing each other in ways much more effective than any invasion could hope to be.
 

Thread Starter

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,292
With all the hoops to be passed through to certify a product for Mil-Spec status it would be much less expensive to use the standard model for commercial purposes. And altogether possible to reclaim those "scrap" chips for military purposes. Especially when you have a military contract to produce equipment requiring mil-spec electronics. Who is also an entrepenuer who can buy the standard model components from scrap dealers for significantly less than the mil-spec ones and still "do the job" and nobody will know. That is what we see going on now in other countries.
 

k1ng 1337

Joined Sep 11, 2020
584
Wow, I was just having this conversation with my brother a couple of weeks ago and I have the opposite opinion about civilians being powerless. I think drones (consumer drones) could help turn the tide of any ground war fought going forward. The Russians should be afraid of drones for the same reason the FAA is. Any yahoo with an inclination could strap a bomb to one and attack unseen from a mile away with his cell phone. Drone swarms. How would a convoy protect themselves from a swarm of exploding drones? Imagine IEDs that don't just haphazardly explode as you drive by, but instead lift off from behind a rock on the side of the road, fly through your windshield, and explode in your face.

Yes, technology makes the bad guys scarier but it empowers everyone who has it, which is pretty much everyone these days. Surveillance works both ways, word travels fast. No more waiting for word of troop movements from a frantic horseman who will probably never make it.

The rest of your post, I don't know what I think about it. Plausible? I don't really disagree about the tipping point but I don't see how simulated wars will be very gratifying for anyone or otherwise effective toward any ends. I think it will be more about attacking infrastructure remotely. Not so many bullets fired, but whole lot of people unable to go to work and run on the hamster wheels that turn the gears of their country. How long can any industrialized country run without industry? I think if our grid went down for more than week we'd just start killing each other in ways much more effective than any invasion could hope to be.
The Star Trek reference was a joke however if you think about the story of the episode, its implying war will become unsustainable and as you kind of put it, no one will dare go outside in fear of imminent death. If I recall correctly, the belligerents get together and decide that its better to simulate the war and have agreed that the simulated losses will willingly commit suicide as they have identified that if they don't, they will exterminate themselves with real war.
 

visionofast

Joined Oct 17, 2018
93
This is all worth to say when you mention US as a country.
US is indeed an island made of whole world's emigrants and resources,not an independent country.
and this is what's made this man dizzy:
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
9,984
We seem to have strayed from the essence of electronics in modern warfare...
True but it's been my experience that advanced weapons with the best electronics only slightly change the odds against those with guts with a population willing to die for something they truly believe in.

 
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