# Idea for a Project - Questions

Discussion in 'Homework Help' started by PsySc0rpi0n, Aug 15, 2016.

1. ### PsySc0rpi0n Thread Starter Well-Known Member

Mar 4, 2014
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Hello!

I came up with an idea that could be subject of a project for my graduation! I'll use this thread to post questions that might come up to my mind until a point where I can say that this is "doable" or not!

For my idea I need to start somewhere looking for information! I already tried Google but the results are quite wide and I'm not sure if I'm using the best (technical) wording.

What I'm looking is for infrared sensors that can sense in a radial way and that can be as much as 330 feet (or so) away from the heat source! Size matters, so the smaller the best!

2. ### ericgibbs Moderator

Jan 29, 2010
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1,171
hi psy,
By 'radial' do you mean 360 degrees all around the IR sensor.?
Which IR band.?
Is the remote 'heat' source an active IR source, stationary or moving.?

E

3. ### PsySc0rpi0n Thread Starter Well-Known Member

Mar 4, 2014
1,433
9

Well, that are questions that probably will make me to unveil a bit more of my idea.

By radial I mean like the widest angle possible around the IR sensor (at least around 150º). The heat source is not another IR sensor and it will be mostly stationary.

I'll give you more details about my idea by PM, if you will!

4. ### AnalogKid AAC Fanatic!

Aug 1, 2013
7,059
1,996
One degree of included angle at 330 ft is less than 6 feet. In other words, a 150 degree angle of view at 330 ft is an arc that is 864 feet wide. My Volvo would be less than 1% of the visual field of the sensor. No matter how hot the engine is, it will take an exceptional sensor to distinguish it from the background without lenses. Without getting into the secret details, what is the object size you want to resolve at 100 yards?

ak

5. ### hp1729 Well-Known Member

Nov 23, 2015
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Vague descriptions can only get vague answers. 330 feet away with what background?
IR detectors in missiles work from great distances. Look up FLIR?

6. ### PsySc0rpi0n Thread Starter Well-Known Member

Mar 4, 2014
1,433
9
The object size/heat source can be as small 15 feet or as high as 50 or 60 feet...

@hp1729, probably that would be too expensive but I didn't look for it yet but I will.

The sensor is intended to detect heat sources at a distance/altitude of at most 330ft or so. I'm not sure if this is enough to get an idea of what kind of sensor I would need!

7. ### wayneh Expert

Sep 9, 2010
14,966
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Suppose you could see – with your eyes – in the relevant IR band and that you are part of your project. What are you looking for? Are you scanning only at the horizon, or looking up in the sky? Are you using binoculars or optics as you scan, like a submarine periscope?

It's just really hard to get a handle on what to suggest without more context. I'm sure we don't need any secrets, just a better picture of your goals.

Rats, didn't see the post above as I was writing.

Here's another question: How distinct from the background is the "heat source"? I mean, detecting fireworks would be fairly easy. Detecting a drone flying by would be far more challenging.

8. ### PsySc0rpi0n Thread Starter Well-Known Member

Mar 4, 2014
1,433
9
I understand all of your frustrations, but I would also like to keep my idea underneath while I'm not sure if is doable!

Ok, the idea is to search the ground for heat sources using a drone or so! The heat source will be perfectly distinct from the surroundings...

9. ### wayneh Expert

Sep 9, 2010
14,966
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Well I suppose one question is whether the sensor could be just a camera with the right IR capabilities, and the "image processing" is done by the human operator. Is it necessary for the device itself to identify a heat source and ... do what when it sees a hot spot? Report coordinates?

10. ### PsySc0rpi0n Thread Starter Well-Known Member

Mar 4, 2014
1,433
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I don't think image processing is needed. Just the heat source detection and maybe coordinates report! And some other action like an automatic phone call or so (I think that everybody already knows where's this going xD)! Of course that this might have some consequences like false detection but I'm just trying to figure basics things out... Let's leave the details for later!

11. ### wayneh Expert

Sep 9, 2010
14,966
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Does that mean that you don't care where in the field of view the hot spot occurs, only whether there is a hot spot or not?

Either way you need a camera (or we can call it a sensor) and a software routine that discriminates when a hot spot appears.

12. ### PsySc0rpi0n Thread Starter Well-Known Member

Mar 4, 2014
1,433
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I care "where" it occurs... That's why I said that when it happens, coordinates should be reported and an automatic call should be made!

13. ### blocco a spirale AAC Fanatic!

Jun 18, 2008
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No specification for resolution or field of view.... useless information about the target e.g. "The heat source will be perfectly distinct from the surroundings." ....what do they teach on engineering courses?

I know where this project is going.

GopherT likes this.
14. ### hp1729 Well-Known Member

Nov 23, 2015
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http://www.infratec-infrared.com/se...1&campaign=6&gclid=CNPPrfX2w84CFYRnfgods4kH7A

If not image processing about all you can do is detect a change. Simple designs only? Two basic circuits to get you started. "PIR detector" is something you can search on.
Electronic Goldmine used to sell a sensor with two lenses that target different distances. Perhaps you can find a lens that is designed for a longer distance.

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15. ### WBahn Moderator

Mar 31, 2012
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You are coming at it backwards. You don't look for a sensor and then build your project around it, you decide what you want your project to accomplish and then see if you can find a sensor that you can make work for it.

What is it you are trying to accomplish?

16. ### AnalogKid AAC Fanatic!

Aug 1, 2013
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Shhhh ... that's a secret ...

17. ### hp1729 Well-Known Member

Nov 23, 2015
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???
If the sensor he needs does not exist there is no reason to ponder the rest of the project. In his specific case he starts with the sensor.

GopherT likes this.
18. ### PsySc0rpi0n Thread Starter Well-Known Member

Mar 4, 2014
1,433
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Ok, I don't care anymore about the secrecy or I won't get anywhere!

The purpose was to equip and build a system around a drone that could detect fires and report their coordinates to some fire departement or make an automatic phone call or so!

Let's imagine I have a drone that has some lifetime given buy some battery and that is somehow programmed to watch a specific area. In that period of time, the drone must scan that area and search for heat sources aka fires and report the coordinates or make some kind of automatic call or set an alarm to alert humans of a possible fire! This was the basic idea. Then, for a long term, it would be to create a bigger network that could cover larger areas!

19. ### AnalogKid AAC Fanatic!

Aug 1, 2013
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You will get *way* better resolution and detection range with a long focal length (zoom) lens on a single point sensor. Rather than have a 150 degree field of view, make it 1 degree and rotate the drone. It's a drone! Let the tool do the work. Electronic compas, gps receiver, and a cell phone.

ak

20. ### WBahn Moderator

Mar 31, 2012
23,158
6,972
That makes zero sense.

I can see, sometimes, starting with a specific sensor and wanting to devise some project that uses that sensor -- but in that case you are starting with a specific sensor that DOES exist.

I can see starting with a project idea that ends up requiring a sensor that doesn't happen to exist and then either figuring a way around it or abandoning that project in favor of another one.

But why on earth would anyone start with a sensor that may not exist and then set about to figure out a project to use it?

You say "the sensor he needs" -- well, why does he need THAT sensor (if it isn't because he wants to accomplish some goal)?