I'm sure you meant those terrorists/extremists etc. I know several muslims that condemn terrrorist acts.
There are extremists for everything. In Brazil there are black gay/white haters, must be the "black supremacy". There is at least one idiot for every stupid idea on earth.

Yes, that was careless wordage of me. Islamic Extremists it is. R!f@@ is a muslim in a muslim country and I believe he and his country are suffering at the hand of Islamic Extremists as we speak.

 

I didn't say to be observed but to have a red flag come up when someone tries to purchase a weapon.

And just how would you accomplish this? The only way would be to put anyone that saw a psychiatrist/psychologist for any reason on a government watch list. As others have pointed out, who would be crazy enough to see a shrink under those conditions (yes, pun intended). And then you are going to deny them the right to exercise, what in America at least, is a constitutional right based on what grounds? That the government thought police think you might someday have a greater likelihood of possibly posing a greater threat.

Consider what the standard reaction is whenever there's any kind of a traum involving a group of people, ranging from a shooting like this to a tornado to a classmate getting killed in a car accident. What's about the first thing we do? Rush in counselors and push them on everyone and look askance at anyone that doesn't talk to one of them because that person is holding it all in and it will sit there and festor over time. So now do we simply put everyone that experiences any type of a traumatic event at any point in their life on a watch list and raise a "red flag" if you ever try to purchase a gun?

 

This is called a family annialator and is a total sociopath. Their reasoning is that without them their family can't survive and would be better off dead. These are the crazies, but most will never have treatment cause their not crazy, they just have no concience and only think of themselves as the center of the universe. Its actually quite common these days.

A "spoilt brat"? Because he can't have his family he makes sure nobody can?

I put it down to stupid people following modern fashions and NOT spanking their children, they breed a new world full of spoilt brats that will lash out at the whole world anytime they don't get everyhting their own way.

I know this is not the "teachers" thread, but along with changing the high schools to teach more real world skills like decision making they should change to teaching discipline and self control as priorities too.

If the loser parents are not competent to discipline their children maybe the schools could do better, they sure used to in the old days, with the strict boarding schools. Much less "family anihilators" in the old days. But then, in the old days there wasn't so many cheating wives running off with their boyfirends and taking the kids AND all the husband's money...

 

I am not proposing anything. I wanted for some to looking at the broader scale of rights in the US and how they are being selectively given and taken at government's will based on the situation. Seems that as long as it is not "us" it is ok to put a whole group of people on a watch list and can be very well done without their knowledge. Was done during cold war, being done now. The guy who shot up Sikhs in their temple was apparently a member of some white supremacy group, and was able to legally purchase a gun. Their agenda is what? (btw that is not a question) I question the equality before government, that is all. Applying filters should not be an option to such high standards as the constitution.

 

I know this is not the "teachers" thread, but along with changing the high schools to teach more real world skills like decision making they should change to teaching discipline and self control as priorities too.

If children don't see their parents exhibiting any discipline and self control, teachers are hard pressed to convince them.

 

If children don't see their parents exhibiting any discipline and self control, teachers are hard pressed to convince them.

Agreed! And compounded likewise by the fact we are in the 2nd generation of "me" people now, possibly bordering on 3rd generation.

As for the parents example, well that was a big part of the benefit of a boarding school, the kids are removed from parental example and control for a big chunk of each year, and taught discipline via good examples by trained professionals and school tradiiton. All pretty much gone now. Even military time now does not succeed well in teaching discipline.

 

I am not proposing anything. I wanted for some to looking at the broader scale of rights in the US and how they are being selectively given and taken at government's will based on the situation. Seems that as long as it is not "us" it is ok to put a whole group of people on a watch list and can be very well done without their knowledge. Was done during cold war, being done now. The guy who shot up Sikhs in their temple was apparently a member of some white supremacy group, and was able to legally purchase a gun. Their agenda is what? (btw that is not a question) I question the equality before government, that is all. Applying filters should not be an option to such high standards as the constitution.

This sikh temple guy was on a watch list, but "the FBI had no reason to believe he was planning an attack." (link)
He was given an "other than honorable" discharge from the Army after 6.5 years service. That means he did something wrong, but not so wrong that they felt he deserved a Dishonorable Discharge. If he had received a Dishonorable Discharge, he would not legally be able to buy guns.

As much as I want to, I can't totally disagree with your argument. You're right, the government gives their undivided attention to radical Islamic groups and shows white supremacist groups lower priority. Technically, this is not fair. But logically, it is necessary. Whats the score in the past few years? How many killings by radical white supremacists Vs Radical Islamics Vs other hate groups (black panthers et. al.)? I think the focus is where it ought to be.

But..... If we condone government control and invasion of privacy of members of "hate groups" then what lies on the path ahead? How do we define a hate group? Or, more importantly, what groups might suddenly and undeserving fall into the category of a "hate group" once we define it? How could the law be twisted to include, and the people manipulated to demonize in the future, any group who may oppose whatever agenda the government or other influential entities are pushing? It's a slippery slope we're on, but for now, I don't perceive us to be sliding down it. We are close though. Is this your point?

 

That's the reason why I brought it up in a specific context - government was watching a whole group of people based on their places of origin. Anyway, there is no way out of it, but if you are depressed, your ability to make rational decisions may be impaired, same goes for people undergoing all types of counselling. I know a few people in the states who own a hand-gun and I believe that they would be better off without it for their own sake for very specific reasons. People with marital problems - here a guy killed his family over a divorce... was a bit of shock to the community.

I dissagree that depressed people are a threat. Most want nothing to do with other people and are non violent. Skitzo, sociopaths, kids that kill cats when their kids yes put em on the list. Or give shrinks an ability to put people on a ? list. But to say all people with a mental illness should be put on a list your talking about 60% of our population. All the airlines would go belly up in a week. Like Randy Travis would be on the list now too.

 

A "spoilt brat"? Because he can't have his family he makes sure nobody can?

I put it down to stupid people following modern fashions and NOT spanking their children, they breed a new world full of spoilt brats that will lash out at the whole world anytime they don't get everyhting their own way.

I know this is not the "teachers" thread, but along with changing the high schools to teach more real world skills like decision making they should change to teaching discipline and self control as priorities too.

If the loser parents are not competent to discipline their children maybe the schools could do better, they sure used to in the old days, with the strict boarding schools. Much less "family anihilators" in the old days. But then, in the old days there wasn't so many cheating wives running off with their boyfirends and taking the kids AND all the husband's money...

I think its more complicated then that RB. I think its a wire that gets crossed or something not rights going on. I just can't believe someone can kill their family by just being spoiled. Thats why I think we need to keep these people alive to research with current and future technology. We could easily find a gene or section of the brain thats being effected. In fact many killers have been given pardons and reduced sentences after horrible crimes because they found a tumor growing in their brains.

 

This sikh temple guy was on a watch list, but "the FBI had no reason to believe he was planning an attack." (link)
He was given an "other than honorable" discharge from the Army after 6.5 years service. That means he did something wrong, but not so wrong that they felt he deserved a Dishonorable Discharge. If he had received a Dishonorable Discharge, he would not legally be able to buy guns.

Depends on your location. Here you can buy an assualt rifle and never even give an ID. You just buy it at the gun show or classifieds. Here long arms aren't required to be registered just handguns. And even then you can get em with no ID in the classifieds.

 

Depends on your location. Here you can buy an assualt rifle and never even give an ID. You just buy it at the gun show or classifieds. Here long arms aren't required to be registered just handguns. And even then you can get em with no ID in the classifieds.

he bought it from a FFL. Here a FFL is required to run a background check (and a background check WAS ran on the guy when he bought the gun) on anybody buying a gun long gun or handgun. HOWEVER, anyone who isn't a FFL can sell whatever they want to whoever they want, without a BG check, so long as there isn't any reason to suspect the buyer of being a felon or mentally unstable.

 

I dissagree that depressed people are a threat. Most want nothing to do with other people and are non violent. Skitzo, sociopaths, kids that kill cats when their kids yes put em on the list. Or give shrinks an ability to put people on a ? list. But to say all people with a mental illness should be put on a list your talking about 60% of our population. All the airlines would go belly up in a week. Like Randy Travis would be on the list now too.

I am assuming you mean schizophrenia. There is a very good movie called "Clean, shaven" to shed some light on the subject.

I was attempting to make a point that there should be no lists and with first world countries such as US and Canada that claim to provide top notch service to their citizens, their citizens should never get to the point where they resort to such measures as they would have proper care in childhood. Unless they are sociopaths, there is not much one can do about certain types of sociopaths.

 

I am assuming you mean schizophrenia. There is a very good movie called "Clean, shaven" to shed some light on the subject.

I was attempting to make a point that there should be no lists and with first world countries such as US and Canada that claim to provide top notch service to their citizens, their citizens should never get to the point where they resort to such measures as they would have proper care in childhood. Unless they are sociopaths, there is not much one can do about certain types of sociopaths.

again I must disagree. Circumstances usually drive people to these horrible acts and its almost as if the acts are the final cry for help. I can attest to how easy it is to fall through the cracks in the medical world without insurance or money. Imagine all these people that are getting no treatment at all. Also many people don't even get symtoms until their late in adult life. So how can you prevent these people who have lived normal lives for 50 years then snap because their pension was embezzled or they lost their home. But MY POINT!! is that the subject is just too complicated with too many variables. Consider it like a twister. We know its coming, but we have no idea exactly where or when or how bad its gonna be. Meanwhile science is struggling to figure out an early warning sign. But this is really pointless because the early warning system went off, but they just chose to ignore it.

 

This is not utopia. That's fiction.

 

You're right, the government gives their undivided attention to radical Islamic groups and shows white supremacist groups lower priority. Technically, this is not fair. But logically, it is necessary. Whats the score in the past few years? How many killings by radical white supremacists Vs Radical Islamics Vs other hate groups (black panthers et. al.)? I think the focus is where it ought to be.

It doesn't matter who it is. Everybody who teaches us that we must hate others because of this and that is responsible for all this mess. This applies to individuals and to governments. If we could just apply common sense and ask ourselves why we have to hate others. Because somebody tells us to do so? I refuse to do so.

from http://politix.topix.com/homepage/1...-of-a-domestic-terrorism-threat-than-al-qaeda

"A slew of media sources have covered the white supremacist and neo-Nazi ties of Wade Michael Page, the gunman believed to have killed six at a Sikh temple on Sunday.
The attack is being treated by the FBI as domestic terrorism, and that's prompted Peter Bergen, CNN's national security analyst, to ask whether right-wing extremists pose as much of a domestic terrorism threat as Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda-linked militants have caused 17 deaths in four attacks on US soil since September 11, according to Bergen's analysis. In the same period, he writes, far right extremists have killed 15 in at least nine attacks, if Sunday's shooting in Wisconsin is included in the count.
In the past year, he adds, the FBI has convicted several white supremacists of plotting violent attacks - like Kevin Harpham, who was jailed for 32 years for planting a bomb at a Martin Luther King Jr. parade. And in 2011, four men in Georgia were arrested for planning an attack with ricin."



http://politix.topix.com/homepage/1...-of-a-domestic-terrorism-threat-than-al-qaeda

 

again I must disagree. Circumstances usually drive people to these horrible acts and its almost as if the acts are the final cry for help. I can attest to how easy it is to fall through the cracks in the medical world without insurance or money. Imagine all these people that are getting no treatment at all. Also many people don't even get symtoms until their late in adult life. So how can you prevent these people who have lived normal lives for 50 years then snap because their pension was embezzled or they lost their home. But MY POINT!! is that the subject is just too complicated with too many variables. Consider it like a twister. We know its coming, but we have no idea exactly where or when or how bad its gonna be. Meanwhile science is struggling to figure out an early warning sign. But this is really pointless because the early warning system went off, but they just chose to ignore it.

we'll just have to agree to disagree as I do not want to get into the discussion about prescription medication situation. A truly ill person will have history of certain behavior patterns, otherwise someone is likely abusing the system. For example, some time ago duels and suicides were quite fashionable. I am starting to wonder whether what we see is a result of an ego-centric culture, amongst other variables.

 

It doesn't matter who it is. Everybody who teaches us that we must hate others because of this and that is responsible for all this mess. This applies to individuals and to governments. If we could just apply common sense and ask ourselves why we have to hate others. Because somebody tells us to do so? I refuse to do so.

I agree, and I think it's impossible for anyone to logically disagree. But the problem is people, at least on any meaningful scale, are not going to "just apply common sense and ask ourselves why we have to hate others." It won't happen. And if it did, the first ones to go pacifist would be the lambs to the slaughter. The whole world would need to simultaneously have some kind of epiphany for it to work.

 

Unless you're Swiss.

 

we'll just have to agree to disagree as I do not want to get into the discussion about prescription medication situation. A truly ill person will have history of certain behavior patterns, otherwise someone is likely abusing the system. For example, some time ago duels and suicides were quite fashionable. I am starting to wonder whether what we see is a result of an ego-centric culture, amongst other variables.

I'm not talking about medication, I feel the antidepressents and all the new drugs are straight poison. I'm just saying things change in peoples lives, no one really knows whats going on in peoples minds, you never really know how much stress someone is in. This hit very hard for me because a very good friend from HS went to Cornell, got her degree in Vet. Science, then went to Loyla Medical for 4 years and got another medical degree, then went to UC DAVIS and finished her phd. 1 week after she finished her phd he committed suicide. We all we dumbfounded. We just didn't get it. Heres a girl with everything going for her, just got a phd in heart enzyme research. And she was in so much mental pain she felt the need to end her life. SHE WAS NOT CRAZY! She was the sweetest person on the earth. I then later talked to her family and found she had been battling anorexia and other mental issues. I know its not the same but its close. Where woman may go suicide many men are gonna go the opposite way.

 

I've seen people in so much pain that they were literally trying to decide whether to kill themselves or somebody else. (I have seen what maxpower just described.) So frightening to witness that, and then the fact that I am completely without any idea how to help the situation. I can only pray that somebody else has the skills to help people in that condition.