I don't get it. It's Oregon.

Why don't they just give everyone free roads?

 

It is never the guys that know how to run the numbers (or what they really mean in the end) that get to make the significant decisions. It's always about politics, and seldom about science.

So true. The degree of the innumeracy in govt is astounding. Not only the elected officials, but all of the policy wonks that they surround themselves with. Yet much of the legislation they enact is about numbers at the end of the day.

This was driven home to me back in the 1996 time frame. There was (yet another) debate over controlling govt spending and balancing the budget. Both sides of Congress had their proposals on the table and each side was going around the country badmouthing the other side's proposal. Our congress critter here was on the local radio station call-in talk program and said that one of the major strengths of his proposal (he was one of the main sponsors) was that it required a 3/5 majority of Congress to raise taxes, while the other side's proposal only required a 2/3 majority. That twanged me, but as I was only listening in the background while working at my desk, I wasn't sure if I had heard it right. Then he said it again, and I knew he has stated it the way I had heard it the first time. I figured he must have made a slip of the tongue and flipped the numbers. But then he said it a few more times (it was clearly THE major difference he was emphasizing). So, I called in and got through to him, on the air. I asked him to confirm for me that I had heard the numbers correctly -- that HIS proposal required a 3/5 majority vote to raise taxes while the opposition's proposal required a 2/3 majority. He confirmed that that was correct. I then asked him to confirm that it was his position that it was therefore harder to raise taxes under his proposal than other the opposition's. He confirmed that that was correct. I then asked, "Even though your 3/5 is a 60% majority and the other side's 2/3 is basically a 67% majority?". He then went, "Well, uh, the point is that it's very difficult to raise taxes under my proposal."

I'm thinking -- okay, let's accept that this elected official can't do elementary school math (despite the fact that he was a veterinarian before getting elected to congress). He didn't all of a sudden start emphasizing this point today on a whim. This is clearly a major talking point that has been developed and hashed over by his staff. He has been going around the country making this point on the radio, on television talk shows, and in town halls for weeks. And I'm the first person to call him out on this? Not one member of his staff has noticed? Not one person that has interviewed him has noticed? Not one member of any of these audiences have said anything? At the time, I found that so incredibly hard to believe. Now, not so much.

Oh, and years later once the Internet was around and legislative bills were available online, I went and looked up the two bills, thinking that maybe he really had mixed up the numbers and had them backwards on that particular show on that particular day -- making it a mental faux pas on his part and slackness on the part of one radio show host. Nope. The numbers he gave were, indeed, the correct numbers in the two bills.

 

I don't get it. It's Oregon.

Why don't they just give everyone free roads?

They need more money to give 'free' tents and drug pipes to the homeless.

 

I 100% agree The "market" (the market forces of horrible pollution in the Nixon era decreasing the value of living in the smog caused the switch to unleaded gas and lower-emission ICE cars) is not always the best choice but switching to EV's today is not really a matter of saving planet earth (or the humans on it) when we are just shifting the pollution from the tail pipe to somewhere else in a large number of cases.
Driving an EV makes the neighborhood around it cleaner, the neighborhood that generates electricity for that EV gets dirtier. I don't know if it's a net win today.

My 2008 car with ultra low "dept paid" emissions vs a new “in debt” EV. It will take maybe 5-6 years for that EV pay the debt in my case. When my current car needs to be replaced, then it's time to reevaluate.

I'll likely buy a used EV, with the emissions debt already paid, not new.

Having driven over the hundreds of miles of open scrub land out west , I'm amazed at the lack of solar panels and storage. Therse enough out west to power all of the States and some.

 

Depending on just how much past 800 miles I go, I would need as little as one fill for my Outback. That’s maybe 3 minutes plus another 5 to hit a drive-thru. A thirty minute break would be nice but not when it’s making the day longer, and especially not if you need more than one.

You mean you drive safe after 6 or so hours at the wheel ,and you drive whilst eating and drinking !
Wow. Please remember to put that on any accident claim forms !
In Europe we have laws that limit length of time driving without a decent break , and laws about dangerous driving
.

 

In Europe we have laws that limit length of time driving without a decent break

For truckers and tourbus drivers etc. Not for average Joe's in private cars.

 

You mean you drive safe after 6 or so hours at the wheel ...

Of course. That'll just get you the 455 miles across Nebraska on I-80. On a 1,000 mile trip from Chicago to Denver, that'd be the mid-day shift after the morning in Iowa and before the last, sunset Colorado leg into Denver.

It's roughly halfway across Texas, where everything is 8 hours apart.

 

You mean you drive safe after 6 or so hours at the wheel ,and you drive whilst eating and drinking !
Wow. Please remember to put that on any accident claim forms !
In Europe we have laws that limit length of time driving without a decent break , and laws about dangerous driving
.

Even on a sixteen hour trip I never came close to falling asleep at the wheel, because the trip was planned and prepared for. If I even started feeling like I was losing focus I could pull over and get a twenty or thirty minute nap, which I did a couple of times.

It's the "routine" one-hour drives that have almost gotten me in trouble, with a couple of near misses, because they aren't planned and do seem routine. After a particularly close call, I started adopting the same policy and would pull off and get at least fifteen minutes of rest before continuing. I've now probably done that a dozen times on these short-haul routine trips, far more than on the long haul runs.

 

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2025/1...g-production-starts-battery-storage-business/

Ford’s F-150 Lightning production line has fallen silent, and its employees are now building more gas and hybrid trucks. The automaker continues to retreat from the big bet it made on Americans embracing full-size battery electric pickup trucks, and will focus instead on cheaper vehicles, hybrids, and range-extended electric vehicles—or EREVs—instead, it announced today.

One of those EREVs will be the Lighting’s replacement. With a gasoline generator that just charges the battery—series hybrid fans rejoice—the next Lightning comes with the towing ability that Ford says its customers consider “non-negotiable,” and up to 700 miles (1,126 km) of range.
...
All of this will impact Ford’s bottom line, to the tune of $19.5 billion over the next few years, $5.5 billion of which will be in cash. Most of that will hit in the final quarter of 2025, but will extend until 2027, Ford said.

 

In Europe we have laws that limit length of time driving without a decent break , and laws about dangerous driving

Europe is a small place.

 

Another issue I have with owning an EV is that, at the end of a long drive to Colorado, what do I do then? I drive up a mountain to camp for a week. That's maybe 5,000 feet of pure vertical gain. The last 6 miles takes about 2 hours as we creep over rocks, thru streams, picking a line that will do the least damage to the car. I suppose the EV would do as well, better maybe, than an ICE. Not sure what state of charge it would be.

But then the vehicle is the base of camp operations for the week. Doors open and close. In a weather emergency everyone piles in to stay dry and/or warm up. The car has to sit there and still start reliably and get everyone back down the mountain at the end of the week. I'll start the ICE every other day or so to make sure the battery gets a refresh and to keep the engine 'fresh'.

The obvious solution is to leave the EV at home and rent something more suited to this duty. That's fine, since I only do this every other year or so. It's just one more ding against owning an EV as your sole vehicle.

 

Another issue I have with owning an EV is that, at the end of a long drive to Colorado, what do I do then? I drive up a mountain to camp for a week. That's maybe 5,000 feet of pure vertical gain. The last 6 miles takes about 2 hours as we creep over rocks, thru streams, picking a line that will do the least damage to the car. I suppose the EV would do as well, better maybe, than an ICE. Not sure what state of charge it would be.

But then the vehicle is the base of camp operations for the week. Doors open and close. In a weather emergency everyone piles in to stay dry and/or warm up. The car has to sit there and still start reliably and get everyone back down the mountain at the end of the week. I'll start the ICE every other day or so to make sure the battery gets a refresh and to keep the engine 'fresh'.

The obvious solution is to leave the EV at home and rent something more suited to this duty. That's fine, since I only do this every other year or so. It's just one more ding against owning an EV as your sole vehicle.

This is actually a case where the EV potentially has the advantage.

What happens if you run out of gas for your ICE? You're stuck.

But with an EV it wouldn't take a very large solar panel to recharge the EV, at least to a point of being able to make it out, since that panel has days of time to do it. A quick search shows that such portable units are available and typically provide between 10 and 30 miles of range a day.

 

But with an EV it wouldn't take a very large solar panel to recharge the EV, at least to a point of being able to make it out, since that panel has days of time to do it. A quick search shows that such portable units are available and typically provide between 10 and 30 miles of range a day.

The Australian outback comes to mind as the perfect place for that sort of backup gadget.

 

The Australian outback comes to mind as the perfect place for that sort of backup gadget.

And there are LOTS of places in the U.S. that are very remote, both mountainous terrain and desert. Plus, it doesn't have to be just a backup gadget, but it can also be your source of a modest amount of electrical power for general camp use, be it device recharging or lights or whatever. I don't know if they could provide enough energy for a small stove, used sparingly, in places where open flames are not permitted. I'd have to run the numbers.

 

Another issue I have with owning an EV is that, at the end of a long drive to Colorado, what do I do then? I drive up a mountain to camp for a week. That's maybe 5,000 feet of pure vertical gain. The last 6 miles takes about 2 hours as we creep over rocks, thru streams, picking a line that will do the least damage to the car. I suppose the EV would do as well, better maybe, than an ICE. Not sure what state of charge it would be.

But then the vehicle is the base of camp operations for the week. Doors open and close. In a weather emergency everyone piles in to stay dry and/or warm up. The car has to sit there and still start reliably and get everyone back down the mountain at the end of the week. I'll start the ICE every other day or so to make sure the battery gets a refresh and to keep the engine 'fresh'.

The obvious solution is to leave the EV at home and rent something more suited to this duty. That's fine, since I only do this every other year or so. It's just one more ding against owning an EV as your sole vehicle.

the horse had many advantages for camping up mountains and rough ground . very manuverable, easy to feed, keeps you warm , take you places cars cant.
why not drive ev to horse rental stables, put car on charge there and go off route ?
the serious part is , whats the normal use of your car ?
i can also think of a few occasions that being able to carry fuel cans is usefull,
same as when uce cars came out, people said, hay i wzntbt go on a 6 months cross country , my horse can , why not the car ?
its all about perspective ,
ev are comming, get used to it.

 

For truckers and tourbus drivers etc. Not for average Joe's in private cars.

if your driving tired, and you are in an accident, then its driving without due care and attention as a minimum,
many other laws about not being capable due to many reasons ,

 

if your driving tired, and you are in an accident, then its driving without due care and attention as a minimum,
many other laws about not being capable due to many reasons ,

If you are in an accident and it is determined that your drowsiness was a factor, you can be cited for impaired driving (using whatever terminology is applicable) regardless of whether you were behind the wheel for fifteen hours or fifteen minutes.

He wasn't saying that there weren't laws that covered this, only that "laws that limit length of time driving without a decent break" do not apply to most non-commercial drivers. I suppose that some country somewhere has them for everyone, but they are going to be unenforceable in any practical sense. I highly doubt that every driver is going to be required to maintain a detailed log of every time they operate the vehicle (which is what long-haul commercial drivers generally have to do).

 

If you are in an accident and it is determined that your drowsiness was a factor, you can be cited for impaired driving (using whatever terminology is applicable) regardless of whether you were behind the wheel for fifteen hours or fifteen minutes.

He wasn't saying that there weren't laws that covered this, only that "laws that limit length of time driving without a decent break" do not apply to most non-commercial drivers. I suppose that some country somewhere has them for everyone, but they are going to be unenforceable in any practical sense. I highly doubt that every driver is going to be required to maintain a detailed log of every time they operate the vehicle (which is what long-haul commercial drivers generally have to do).

Consider the hair well split.
Have a good Christmas.

 

Just finished out first long distance trip to LA and back from Denver in our Ioniq 5.
We went I-70 and I_15 to LA, but then took I-10 and I-25 back to avoid bad weather further north.
In general the trip was normal except from a few extra stops to refuel as compared to a gas car, but I don't mind stopping every couple hours or so for a break.
There were charging stations about every 100 miles, so range anxiety was not an issue (except see below).

Well, I did run into a little glitch.
I stupidly didn't check charging station availability, so didn't know that the charging station in Wagon Mound, NM (the only one within about 40 miles) was down for an upgrade of the charging modules, and I arrived with about 30 miles of range left on the battery.
Wagon Mound has about 550 people with no motels, but the gas station there was kind enough to let me charge at their 120V output (which charges at ≈1.2KW).
After a few hours charge (at about 3 miles of range per hour) I had enough charge margin to get to Springer, NM about 25 miles away, where we got a motel.
The motel nicely let me charge at an outside outlet overnight, so by about 10AM the next morning I had enough charge to get to the fast charger at Trinidad, CO, 60 miles away (with about 15 miles of range margin).
So we had a day's delay in our trip, but fortunately found some 120V outlets that gave me enough charge to continue our journey.
Lesson learned -- Check charger availability on a long trip.

 

Just finished out first long distance trip to LA and back from Denver in our Ioniq 5.
We went I-70 and I_15 to LA, but then took I-10 and I-25 back to avoid bad weather further north.
In general the trip was normal except from a few extra stops to refuel as compared to a gas car, but I don't mind stopping every couple hours or so for a break.
There were charging stations about every 100 miles, so range anxiety was not an issue (except see below).

Well, I did run into a little glitch.
I stupidly didn't check charging station availability, so didn't know that the charging station in Wagon Mound, NM (the only one within about 40 miles) was down for an upgrade of the charging modules, and I arrived with about 30 miles of range left on the battery.
Wagon Mound has about 550 people with no motels, but the gas station there was kind enough to let me charge at their 120V output.
After a few hours charge (at about 3 miles of range per hour) I had enough charge margin to get to Springer, NM about 25 miles away, where we got a motel.
The motel nicely let me charge at an outside outlet overnight, so by about 10AM the next morning I had enough charge to get to the fast charger at Trinidad, CO, 60 miles away (with about 15 miles of range margin).
So we had a day's delay in our trip, but fortunately found some 120V outlets that gave me enough charge to continue our journey.
Lesson learned -- Check charger availability on a long trip.

When I was flying small planes, I got real comfortable with the adage, "Time to spare? Go by air!" In that context, it wasn't fuel, but weather that could strand you someplace for hours or even days. But that reality made it so that flying for trips was only an option when those kinds of delays were acceptable, which they usually were not. The same would be the case for most trips by car -- I can't tolerate a day's delay in most cases, so using an EV would not be a viable option for me. Even leaving aside the added hassle of having to check charger availability all long the route, there's the risk that a charging station that was indicated as available won't be when I get there. With gas, that's seldom a concern. Of course, this is an issue that, eventually, should go away as charging stations become more common, though it will take longer out in the western U.S. than back east just due to the distances and population densities involved.

I always carry a five gallon container of fuel with me, which is all-but guaranteed to get me to a gas station from just about anywhere. On the flip side, EVs at least allow for the possibility of having an emergency solar-powered charger that would give you unlimited range, albeit at an abysmally slow average speed. There's no similar option for gas-powered cars.