https://newsroom.aaa.com/2024/06/is-the-ev-hype-over/
Is the EV Hype Over?
AAA finds interest in EVs declining as Americans turn their attention to hybrids

 

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2024/06/is-the-ev-hype-over/
Is the EV Hype Over?
AAA finds interest in EVs declining as Americans turn their attention to hybrids

View attachment 324824

If EVs were superior to ICE, in every possible way, I still wouldn't buy one for one simple reason: the government wants me to.

Call me a rebel.

 

If EVs were superior to ICE, in every possible way, I still wouldn't buy one for one simple reason: the government wants me to.

Call me a rebel.

How do you feel about hybrids? ... do you still prefer ICE, or are there some options out there that you'd be willing to consider?

 

How do you feel about hybrids? ... do you still prefer ICE, or are there some options out there that you'd be willing to consider?

I refuse to drive anything other than ICE. V8s preferable.

 

 

 

If EVs were superior to ICE, in every possible way, I still wouldn't buy one for one simple reason: the government wants me to.

Call me a rebel.

Hopefully you won’t vote for the same reason.

 

Hopefully you won’t vote for the same reason.

Trust me: the government doesn't want me to vote (for the same reason as you) .

But I will, anyway.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40444658/randall-cobb-family-lucky-alive-house-fire

ICE vehicles generally don't spontaneously combust in your garage.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40444658/randall-cobb-family-lucky-alive-house-fire

ICE vehicles generally don't spontaneously combust in your garage.

It's the explosive combustion that exponentially increases is what's so dangerous. Normal liquid fossil fuel fires are dangerous but they normally have a some sort of limitations due to fuel oxygen ratios with vapors, these batteries are like small sticks of TNT.

 

It's the explosive combustion that exponentially increases is what's so dangerous. Normal liquid fossil fuel fires are dangerous but they normally have a some sort of limitations due to fuel oxygen ratios with vapors, these batteries are like small sticks of TNT.

Where's Ralph Nader when you need him?

 

Where's Ralph Nader when you need him?

It's not all doom and gloom but IMO we need to have some hard mandatory safety requirements damn quickly before things get out of control.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/battery-safety-initiative

I think we can make 'safer' batteries like Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) but they are lower energy density so range is reduced in a EV.

Those look bad but the fire is not explosive in nature like lithium-ion battery thermal runaway.

The fumes from a Lithium battery are extremely toxic. Most of the Korean factory deaths were from suffocation and then the bodies were burned after they fell.
https://www.ppe101.com/2024/03/lithium-ion-battery-fires-understanding-ppe-contamination-hazards/

What types of contamination do Li-ion battery fires produce?
Several studies have sought to address the decomposition products emanating from Li-ion battery-based fires, often with a focus on electric vehicles (EVs). These studies [1-3] have shown a wide range of contaminants, where some produced chemicals that differ from conventional structural fire contaminants. For example, fire smoke evaluated for the presence of chemicals shows hydrogen fluoride, hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen chloride and sulfur dioxide, as well as various fluorinated phosphorus and lithium-based compounds. In addition, the runoff from such fires includes elevated levels of lithium, not unsurprisingly, with heavy metals that include nickel, manganese and cobalt. Yet, these same studies have shown the generation of various volatile and semi-volatile organic compounds, including polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), which are typical of nearly all fires.
...
In examining some potentially relevant chemicals, some idea of specific hazards can be inferred. For example, hydrogen fluoride, which is a uniquely dangerous, strong inorganic acid has been found in smoke for Li-ion battery fires at levels approaching 600 ppm. As a frame of reference, the immediately dangerous to life and health (IDLH) concentration for hydrogen fluoride is only 30 ppm. Furthermore, cobalt is a dangerous heavy metal that is most likely to show up in a form combined with other atoms as an inorganic chemical. Fumes of these chemicals are considered dangerous at relatively low levels in air (NIOSH Recommended Exposure Limit of 0.05 milligram per cubic meter over an 8-hour exposure [4]). What is of greatest interest for this discussion is understanding which contaminants remain on PPE and the expected residual concentrations following the fire event.

https://www.mass.gov/doc/toxicology-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-fire/download
Toxicology of the Lithium Ion Battery Fire Captain Timothy J Vamosi, MSN-RN, EMTP

 

It's not all doom and gloom but IMO we need to have some hard mandatory safety requirements damn quickly before things get out of control.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/battery-safety-initiative

I think we can make 'safer' batteries like Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) but they are lower energy density so range is reduced in a EV.

Those look bad but the fire is not explosive in nature like lithium-ion battery thermal runaway.

The fumes from a Lithium battery are extremely toxic. Most of the Korean factory deaths were from suffocation and then the bodies were burned after they fell.
https://www.ppe101.com/2024/03/lithium-ion-battery-fires-understanding-ppe-contamination-hazards/


https://www.mass.gov/doc/toxicology-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-fire/download
Toxicology of the Lithium Ion Battery Fire Captain Timothy J Vamosi, MSN-RN, EMTP

It is impossible to build a safe EV with a performance level and cost at which consumers will pay without massive government subsidies.

Dead on arrival, 100 years ago.

 

Dead on arrival, 100 years ago.

I disagree on that one, Joey. It's not fair to compare lead-acid 100 year old tech with current Lithium Ion developments.

It's clear that modern battery chemistries have not been thoroughly understood yet.

We'll have to wait and see what new tech is developed to mitigate the current shortcomings.

Let the market decide what happens next.

 

It is impossible to build a safe EV with a performance level and cost at which consumers will pay without massive government subsidies.

Dead on arrival, 100 years ago.

That's likely true but it's not a technical problem today. It's one, we as citizens need have a choice in because the current EV mandates and infrastructure requirements to support them are IMO a fantasy of made up numbers.

 

I disagree on that one, Joey. It's not fair to compare lead-acid 100 year old tech with current Lithium Ion developments.

It's clear that modern battery chemistries have not been thoroughly understood yet.

We'll have to wait and see what new tech is developed to mitigate the current shortcomings.

Let the market decide what happens next.

I'm a huge fan of new tech, but tech ain't going to fix EVs. In the end, for consumers to buy them, they must be marketable. There is no there there.

 

ICE vehicles generally don't spontaneously combust in your garage.

The US does not track the type of vehicle when it tracks car fires, but Sweden does:

According to MSB data, there are nearly 611,000 EVs and hybrids in Sweden as of 2022. With an average of 16 EV and hybrid fires per year, there's a 1 in 38,000 chance of fire. There are a total of roughly 4.4 million gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles in Sweden, with an average of 3,384 fires per year, for a 1 in 1,300 chance of fire. That means gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles are 29 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids.

Sure, this is not from “spontaneous combustion.” But I would rather not have my car catch fire under any circumstances. And I would rather have it go up in my garage than in an accident, where I am less likely ti get out in time.

 

The US does not track the type of vehicle when it tracks car fires, but Sweden does:


Sure, this is not from “spontaneous combustion.” But I would rather not have my car catch fire under any circumstances. And I would rather have it go up in my garage than in an accident, where I am less likely ti get out in time.

Can you not read?

How many ICE vehicles spontaneously explode inside one's garage while they are sleeping?

While you're at it, include eBike and Scooters.

 

The US does not track the type of vehicle when it tracks car fires, but Sweden does:


Sure, this is not from “spontaneous combustion.” But I would rather not have my car catch fire under any circumstances. And I would rather have it go up in my garage than in an accident, where I am less likely ti get out in time.

I'm sure that's true but it's not a fire that's the real issue, it's the nature (self-contained oxidizer/fuel and a flammable metal accelerator) of the fire when it happens.

 

I'm sure that true but it's not a fire that's the real issue, it's the nature (self-contained oxidizer/fuel and a flammable metal accelerator) of the fire when it happens.

In addition to the spontaneity.