Certainly LEDs are a total game changer, but not as big a change as the electric light was. No question there. Suddenly we no longer had to deal with poor lighting during the hours of darkness.

During my early years I aided in converting many old manor houses from gas to electricity.
My bonus was many metres of scrap lead pipe.

 

Traffic light bulbs I'm familiar with were designed for 130VAC service. I don't know what voltage they are typically run at, but if 110, 115, 117 or 120VAC, the over-rating meant they would have longer life. They were specifically designed that way.

One of the ”tricks“ in commercial building maintenance was to buy 130V lamps which multiplied the service life as much as five times in my experience. They were dimmer for a given wattage rating, of course, so that had to be accounted for. But the longer lifetime is a real boon when you have hundreds or thousands of lamps that could need replacement.

On the down side, such a lamp is less efficient at producing light. The lumens per Watt is not a linear thing and a filament designed to produce say 100W at 130V will produce less light using more power than a 100W 120V lamp. The difference in percentage is small but the absolute numbers of thousands of lamps adds up.

 

One of the ”tricks“ in commercial building maintenance was to buy 130V lamps which multiplied the service life as much as five times in my experience. They were dimmer for a given wattage rating, of course, so that had to be accounted for. But the longer lifetime is a real boon when you have hundreds or thousands of lamps that could need replacement.

On the down side, such a lamp is less efficient at producing light. The lumens per Watt is not a linear thing and a filament designed to produce say 100W at 130V will produce less light using more power than a 100W 120V lamp. The difference in percentage is small but the absolute numbers of thousands of lamps adds up.

Hi there,

Yes, I think they sometimes call the so-called "long life bulbs" with "LL" suffix that, where they are actually designed for higher voltage.

I can produce some formulas if anyone is interested that come from an electrical engineering handbook. They relate lumens, watts, current, etc., to the innate voltage of the bulb. The formulas involve exponential factors.

Also, I have read that one of the other dominating factors for longevity is vibration and the turn on shock. Vibration can kill a weak filament, and when the bulb is turned on that thermal shock can kill the bulb and that is why we see these bulbs often fail when they are old and just turned on.
I just saw the vibration factor kick in yesterday when I took out an old incandescent bulb from the dome light in one of my older cars. It worked fine and lit up bright, but I wanted to replace it with an LED equivalent. I put the bulb into a plastic bag and put the plastic bag inside a cloth bag (I had other stuff I was carrying such as the new LED bulbs). When I got upstairs a little later I tested the incandescent because I wanted to measure the current myself. I was shocked to find out the filament was broken. I did not mishandle the bulb at all so the smallest vibration must have broken the filament. Did it knock into something else in the bag when carrying it? Maybe but it couldn't have been very extreme. I wanted to test the current (and therefore wattage) so I could compare it with what I read on the web. Needless to say, I can't do that now because I don't have another actual bulb to test, only the LEDs.
Interestingly, the bulb spec on the web is about 1.4 amps while the LED current draw is less than 20ma, yet the brightness is similar (at 12v for both).

 

Vibration can kill a weak filament

This is the entire reason why I first tried HID lamps. The halogen headlamps in my wife's car, right side, was always burning out just six months in. The reason was clearly vibration. The lamp assembly was damaged and could not be locked down, so it vibrated a lot. Always that one light. Since switching to HID I haven't had to replace a lamp in years. And yes, my HID's are still going strong.

Earlier in this conversation we were talking about blinding on coming traffic. The projector assemblies in all my vehicles have the cutoff plate that blocks the lower portion of the beam, which gets reflected upwards. Don't remember who said it before, but that's a crucial part of the equation. Standard reflector housings don't have that cutoff, and will appear as high beams. In fact, some of the halogen bulbs I've seen in years gone by that had double filaments were constructed with an internal baffle to cut off the beam so oncoming traffic would not be blinded. A second filament little further out did not have any baffles so its light would be cast out fully.

Short of it all - I like HID. Have had it in four vehicles now. Two of my wife's cars and two of my trucks. I still keep the halogen bulbs in the glove box just in case some smart fart police officer wants to make a deal of it - I can swap them back to factory original.

[edit] it was cousin Pete who first mentioned it.

 

This is the entire reason why I first tried HID lamps. The halogen headlamps in my wife's car, right side, was always burning out just six months in. The reason was clearly vibration. The lamp assembly was damaged and could not be locked down, so it vibrated a lot. Always that one light. Since switching to HID I haven't had to replace a lamp in years. And yes, my HID's are still going strong.

Earlier in this conversation we were talking about blinding on coming traffic. The projector assemblies in all my vehicles have the cutoff plate that blocks the lower portion of the beam, which gets reflected upwards. Don't remember who said it before, but that's a crucial part of the equation. Standard reflector housings don't have that cutoff, and will appear as high beams. In fact, some of the halogen bulbs I've seen in years gone by that had double filaments were constructed with an internal baffle to cut off the beam so oncoming traffic would not be blinded. A second filament little further out did not have any baffles so its light would be cast out fully.

Short of it all - I like HID. Have had it in four vehicles now. Two of my wife's cars and two of my trucks. I still keep the halogen bulbs in the glove box just in case some smart fart police officer wants to make a deal of it - I can swap them back to factory original.

[edit] it was cousin Pete who first mentioned it.

Hi,

The way I understand it is that the HID lamps do not have filaments, so that removes that issue right off the bat.
The light is brighter, so that's a plus too.
The only question left is, how hard is it to replace the little tube-like halogen bulbs with the HID lights?

I hate the color of regular filament bulbs which includes halogen, I can't stand it and never did. I don't have to drive at night very much though and I could probably plan my itinerary such that I never have to drive at night, which I had been doing for at least a year now.

It appears that LED headlamps may have one advantage over HID though, and that is the presumed longevity. If done right I think the LED lights last longer, but I do have to assume that because I never tested them that much. For me it would not matter anyway because even if I did drive at night the longest stretch would be about 15 minutes there and 15 minutes back maybe once a month.
My insurance company makes a bundle off of me as they kept raising my monthly premium and I only drive once or twice a week up to 1.5 to 2 miles away, then back, and the roads I take are the safest roads in the area almost never any highway, just don't need to go there. Last time I drove on a highway was over a year ago and then it was just a short stretch about 5 miles or less, and drove back on the back roads.

 

...My insurance company makes a bundle off of me as they kept raising my monthly premium and...

Hi. Many years ago, I drove one car for three, four months, whatever I felt like and when I wanted to drive the other I called AAA to change the insurance to the "other" It worked a few years doing the swap and paying insurance only for one vehicle. Anyway, there is no F...ing way I can drive two vehicles at the same time.
Then, a year or two later AAA started to send notifications to DMV at every swap made as if it were sold/new vehicles. Ignored and continue like another year. I cannot see why insurance companies have to put their hands in our pockets for their zero risk.
Tried to obtain driver's insurance instead of car insurance and they started babbling and invented reasons that they would do it only if I would not own the vehicles being driven. Later, their 'umbrella' insurance became too greedy. Dumped AAA for that and other reasons. I cannot feed the greedy for providing me no service.

 

Hi. Many years ago, I drove one car for three, four months, whatever I felt like and when I wanted to drive the other I called AAA to change the insurance to the "other" It worked a few years doing the swap and paying insurance only for one vehicle. Anyway, there is no F...ing way I can drive two vehicles at the same time.
Then, a year or two later AAA started to send notifications to DMV at every swap made as if it were sold/new vehicles. Ignored and continue like another year. I cannot see why insurance companies have to put their hands in our pockets for their zero risk.
Tried to obtain driver's insurance instead of car insurance and they started babbling and invented reasons that they would do it only if I would not own the vehicles being driven. Later, their 'umbrella' insurance became too greedy. Dumped AAA for that and other reasons. I cannot feed the greedy for providing me no service.

Hi,

Yes same here. Insurance on two cars and I am the sole driver and they know it.

What is "drivers insurance"? Very interesting.

 

Driver's insurance insures the driver to all covered events no matter whose car drives, your friend, a boat, your cousin's car, a borrowed motorcycle, camper, a rental, your company truck, even if such vehicle driven is insured or not. They offer that now under 'umbrella' insurance (against everything and anything) Only big shots in insurance companies know about. Do not ask a plain clerk or will give you the babbling.
Similar to a car dealer driving 'unsold, unregistered, uninsured, new or used vehicles' as for demonstration or going to a shop, delivery, car wash, personal manager use or whatever in traffic anywhere.

I have always #@$^%+* against insurance companies that the driver is the one to be insured, not the car. The car itself does not pose any risk.

But they won't go for a less lucrative policy. They want us to fill their pockets for having our car parked. I wish some screaming politician could change the robbery. My car has not started in 4 days and in a few I will go to the supermarket and back to the garage. Insurers are soooo happy with us.

As soon as there is a flood coming, they want to quit the market while their pockets are full. Collect yes, pay, no !

 

Driver's insurance insures the driver to all covered events no matter whose car drives, your friend, a boat, your cousin's car, a borrowed motorcycle, camper, a rental, your company truck, even if such vehicle driven is insured or not. They offer that now under 'umbrella' insurance (against everything and anything) Only big shots in insurance companies know about. Do not ask a plain clerk or will give you the babbling.
Similar to a car dealer driving 'unsold, unregistered, uninsured, new or used vehicles' as for demonstration or going to a shop, delivery, car wash, personal manager use or whatever in traffic anywhere.

I have always #@$^%+* against insurance companies that the driver is the one to be insured, not the car. The car itself does not pose any risk.

But they won't go for a less lucrative policy. They want us to fill their pockets for having our car parked. I wish some screaming politician could change the robbery. My car has not started in 4 days and in a few I will go to the supermarket and back to the garage. Insurers are soooo happy with us.

As soon as there is a flood coming, they want to quit the market while their pockets are full. Collect yes, pay, no !

Hi,

Oh yes same problem here. The town itself is in a flood zone and so they charge extra for that, even though we are on the highest ground in the town and never, ever, got a flood that came all the way up here. During Huricane Floyd the water was up to the second floor down town, we had nothing. It would have had to go another two floors up to reach us even a little. But we are said to be in a flood zone.

Anyway, i'll have to check that drivers insurance out. I wonder how that would work if the car was already insured and plated. Like say i wanted to let someone drive my car but use their insurance, even though i have my plates on it and i have my own insurance. I would hope that the drivers insurance would cover any problems that came up instead of my insurance.
Maybe you have some ideas about this scenario.

 

Topic Drift Alert
@SamR if this is drifting too far off-topic, please say so and I will avoid going further.

Oh yes same problem here. The town itself is in a flood zone…

Our house is right on a river, in fact we own river front footage. When we moved in I asked about flood insurance and the title company, realtor, and neighbors all said, ”what flood insurance?”

It turns out when perusing the flood plain maps, I found that because our back of the river is about 20 feet lower than our property there is no reason for insurance. Downtown and almost all of the surrounding area would have to be underwater before we were threatened.

We had a 500 year flood a couple of years ago. It nearly took out our deck with the river reaching a few feet over flood stage, but thankfully, it didn’t. We just needed some light repairs.

I just found it ironic that living on the river keeps us safer than living away from it. Though I am a left-hander, this is a case where being “gauche” is negative, as in “Rive Gauche”—not that we live on the Seine, but we are on the right bank in more senses than one.

 

One of the ”tricks“ in commercial building maintenance was to buy 130V lamps which multiplied the service life as much as five times in my experience. They were dimmer for a given wattage rating, of course, so that had to be accounted for. But the longer lifetime is a real boon when you have hundreds or thousands of lamps that could need replacement.

On the down side, such a lamp is less efficient at producing light. The lumens per Watt is not a linear thing and a filament designed to produce say 100W at 130V will produce less light using more power than a 100W 120V lamp. The difference in percentage is small but the absolute numbers of thousands of lamps adds up.

brightness varies with the cube of voltage.
Life varies inversely with the twelfth power.

Back in 2003, the supply voltage throughout the EU was unified at 230V, but it was a massive fudge. Britain’s voltage became 230V+10%-6% and the rest of the EU became 230V-10%+6%: in other words, it stayed exactly as it was before “unification” when Britain was 240V and continental Europe was 220V.
Lamp manufacturers started making just one version, a strategy which did not last long as there were soon complaints of poor lamp life in Britain and poor light output in Europe.

 

Hello again,

Here is the formula i got from an engineering handbook that relates the life expectancy of a regular filament bulb.
I provided three of the common examples.

Formula given:
life/LIFE=(VOLTS/volts)^13.1

where
LIFE=normal life expectancy
VOLTS=normal voltage spec
life=altered run life expectancy
volts=altered running voltage

Solving for the life expectancy at a new voltage level:
life=LIFE*(VOLTS/volts)^13.1

Example of overvoltage, 130v for a 120v bulb:
life=1000*(120/130)^13.1
life=350 hours

Example of undervoltage, 110v for a 120v bulb:
life=1000*(120/110)^13.1
life=3100 hours

Example of a so-called long life bulb, 120v for a 130v bulb:
life=1000*(130/120)^13.1
life=2900 hours

All these examples use 1000 hours as the original life expectancy of the bulb.
As can be seen, the voltage change in each case was very roughly 10 percent higher or 10 percent lower, very roughly speaking.

From the above we can see running a bulb at a higher than rated voltage severely decreases the life expectancy (1/3), while running at lower than rated voltage the life expectancy goes up pretty much, by a factor of 3 for a normal long-life bulb, assuming that rough estimate of 10 percent voltage up or down.

The formula was developed by testing a large number of bulbs and then averaging the results.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/streetlights-are-mysteriously-turning-purple-heres-why/
I hate the harsh blue light from the LED street lamps.

 

LED bulb failure that happens slowly is because the LED has reached it's half-life, where the light output has dropped to half the original level. Failure prior to that point, usually at 20,000 to 50,000 hours is due to either abuse or poor quality manufacturing. Mostly it is caused by a failure in the driver electronics, although poor connections or excess heat can certainly damage LEDs. Almost all LED bulb packages include some form of switch-mode power supply, and in every switcher supply there are a few highly stressed components which will eventually fail if they are not adequate quality.

Incandescent light bulbs also fail eventually, but for rather different reasons. Very high temperatures of metal assemblies always work toward failures. Higher than specified voltages greatly shorten the life, and thinner materials poorly joined will always fail sooner.

 

Incandescent light bulbs also fail eventually, but for rather different reasons. Very high temperatures of metal assemblies always work toward failures. Higher than specified voltages greatly shorten the life, and thinner materials poorly joined will always fail sooner.

And also because incandescent light bulbs are being produced using the programmed obsolesce business practice.

 

They do make good LED bulbs.
https://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/consumer/ultra-efficient

 

Certainly there are some very good, adequately designed LED bulbs. No question about tht. But also those that produce RFI and also those that do not last. THAT is why every bulb should have a manufacturer's name on it, and a production date. THAT would at least allow retroactive quality control.

 

That Philips bulb seems way too expensive if has no warranty for those maaany claimed years.. The envelope sounded like glass ? If so, works with air or vacuum inside ?

 

Yes, most of Edison's famous inventions are now more or less obsolete including, but not limited to: the practical incandescent bulb, film movies, the phonograph (except for a few die-hards), DC power distribution, and the carbon mike (which made Bell's early telephone practical).

He also came close to inventing the first diode vacuum tube when he observed the Edison Effect, but didn't follow up on that observation to realize its practical application as a detector of radio waves, until Fleming invented it about 20 years after that.

Edison made improvements to the Nickel-Iron battery which is currently being looked into as possibly useful in conjunction with intermittent sources of electricity such as photo-voltaic.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...efore-its-time?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us

 

Most if not all of the commercial LED bulbs are bad in that they eventually add to the gross amounts of electronic waste being generated. LED lighting should involve a separate robust power supply that will last many years and a replaceable LED that is only LED(s).