bringing humanity back

Status
Not open for further replies.

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
I don't think I made myself clear, and may have appeared to be more of a Grinch than usual.

I have not taken a position against charity. I only raised the point that some forms of charity are damaging, and rise to the level of immoral when they are done primarily for the feel-good benefit of the giver at the expense of the receiver. The book I linked to highlights some examples of that.

My daughter had personal experience with poverty and charity in Haiti, and saw things similar to those shown in the book. The locals complained to her that relief organizations drop in, build things and give them things like food, and then disappear. The people there are far more interested in getting the skills and infrastructure to build their own things, for years to come, and they want to engage in commerce to supply their own needs. Free food drops actually destroyed the local grocery business and supply chain.
 

Lestraveled

Joined May 19, 2014
1,946
..................... Free food drops actually destroyed the local grocery business and supply chain.
I agree with is statement. Charity can destroy infrastructure. When thinking is not part of a persons/organization job description, then nothing good will come of good intentions.
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
Well, we can all be happy about veteran benefits getting cut.
Equating veterans' benefits to charity is not cool. Those benefits are contractual and earned, and I doubt a veteran would appreciate your comment. It's not charity for an employer to pay employees.

What Strantor described is more like someone robbing you on the street so they can give your money to the homeless guy under the overpass, only at a large scale.
 

Brownout

Joined Jan 10, 2012
2,390
Equating veterans' benefits to charity is not cool. Those benefits are contractual and earned, and I doubt a veteran would appreciate your comment. It's not charity for an employer to pay employees.
Veteran benefits are authorized and paid via the general fund, just as any other transfer. Money is collected through taxes as forcefully as any other tax, and paid to other people just as Strantor wrote. BTW, I'm a vet.

What Strantor described is more like someone robbing you on the street so they can give your money to the homeless guy under the overpass, only at a large scale.
Strantor explicitly wrote TAXES. Not someone robbing anyone on the street. It's all collected and paid the same way. Vet benefits have been eroding and continue to do so, often justified with the same rhetoric as other types of assistance.
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
Taxes for forced charity and robbing in the street (to pass to the guy under the bridge) are morally indistinguishable. Differ only in scale.
 

Brownout

Joined Jan 10, 2012
2,390
Taxes for forced charity and robbing in the street (to pass to the guy under the bridge) are morally indistinguishable. Differ only in scale.
Then don't pay them. I'm sure there are places on earth where people don't pay taxes. I hear western New Guinea is tax free.
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
The problem with table saw OJT is that you can convert one of your hands from digital to binary in a hurry.
True, but, like I say to people who work with deadly voltages ... the ass you save maybe your own. Safety first.

As far as the "mandatory fun" OJT, it would have been a discussion over a brew of your choice. Not all OJT is on the work site, but the topics revolve around the work.
 

Thread Starter

RRITESH KAKKAR

Joined Jun 29, 2010
2,829
What i think the root is plant.
If we grow more than we can have everything, but where to grow there is almost no place left taken by building ,workshop, roads etc
'PLANT' GIVE us Air, food etc even we don't know much more.
i was watching TV yesterday ' Baba ram dev' friend don't know the name xxx.
has grown more than different type of flower 1 lakh. near Raja ji national park forest.
he is weorking in natural yoga and hospital.
with latest infrastructure for making food.
called patanjali products list 2015
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
Well, we can all be happy about veteran benefits getting cut.
I guess now would be a good time for me to concede that I dont have all the answers.

On the one hand I DO feel like taxes are robbery. If one person does not agree with abortion then they should not be forced to pay for other people's abortions at clinics that receive tax money. If one person doesn't agree that we should have the world's largest and most advanced military, and that we should be engaging in other coutries' conflicts, and that they should be responsible for lifetime care of anyone who signs up and gets injured in said 3rd party conflicts, then they should not have their money taken away FOR LIFE and given to this cause they don't support.

On the other hand, I feel that if we didn't have the world's largest and most advanced military then we would lose our homeland. I feel it's necessary. I cant prove that; I might be wrong.

I feel that if we didn't honor our commitment to our veterans to pay for damages and to pay retirement to anyone who gave up the entire prime of their life to defense of the nation, then that would be just as (or more) immoral than fixing them up with other people's money.

In short, i don't know about tax.

I don't know about charity either, as it applies to veterans. I'm starting to understand wayneh's point after post #23 and I think it is almost as applicable to veterans same as haitians.

I have had a question in the back of my head for some time, and it's a question I've been afraid to ask for fear of insulting a huge number of people. I'm going to ask it now, and trust that you guys will read only what I write, and read nothing between the lines; I'm a veteran but I was never shot at and never saw my friends exploded next to me - had I experienced that, maybe i would understand. But why do we have such a big problem with homeless veterans? Driving through Houston every day I see at least 2 or 3 guys standing by the road holding "homeless veteran " signs. I used to think most of them weren't really veterans, just dishonestly playing to people's sympathy, but i have read some statistics that indicates most if them might really be veterans. Most of these guys are working age and not in wheel chairs.

I theorize that they homeless because they suffered psychological trauma that rendered them flaky, unreliable employees that can't hold down a job. If that's the case, what kind of charity or tax-funded assistance is appropriate? Just throwing money at the problem won't fix it. I don't know if this type of psychological damage can be corrected, but my shotgun answer is that if it can, that would probably happen in a scenario involving a controlled environment and a psychiatrist, and not a scenario involving street corners, strangers, handouts, and booze. If you see one of these guys on a street corner, are you really helping him by giving him a handout? Or are you enabling/prolonging his stay in this unhealthy overpass environment? Is there anything better you could do for him? I really don't know the answer.
 

Brownout

Joined Jan 10, 2012
2,390
@strantor,

I'm not convinced that all the people holding up "homeless veteran" signs are really vets. But it is true that homelessness is a big problem among veterans. They need much more psychological care, assistance with housing, etc, but budget hawks continue to deny these programs. They say it's too expensive. I say if it's too expensive to care for veterans, then it's too expensive to go to war.
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
@strantor,

I'm not convinced that all the people holding up "homeless veteran" signs are really vets. But it is true that homelessness is a big problem among veterans. They need much more psychological care, assistance with housing, etc, but budget hawks continue to deny these programs. They say it's too expensive. I say if it's too expensive to care for veterans, then it's too expensive to go to war.
Your last sentence is spot on. I agree they need psych help, but I'm on the fence about housing and whatever might be included in "etc."

Again i feel like I'm walking on egg shells here, not totally qualified to have an opinion on the matter given I never saw combat. But by providing housing for example, are we giving a man a fish, or are we teaching a man to fish?

EDIT: housing obviously would be appropriate for anyone who is physically totally disabled
 
Last edited:

Brownout

Joined Jan 10, 2012
2,390
I'm on the fence about housing and whatever might be included in "etc."
I'm on the fence about getting shot at or getting blown up by IED's. Maybe if we can cherry-pick about what support we are willing to give to vets returning from war, it's reasonable for vets to cherry-pick which dangers they are willing to face. "OK, we'll man checkpoints in rear areas, but we won't travel through areas known to have IED's." Seems fair, right?

But the topic isn't taxes or vet care. Maybe we should rip the thread out and start over. I find it shocking that anyone would declare any act of giving is immoral. Giving is one of the most moral things a person can do, if not the most moral. Lately, I read this kind of nonsense, statements that contradict all reason. To give to is deny oneself so that another benefits. The object given, be it currency, food or material, is something the giver does without so that another will have. It's the ultimate act of generosity. Now immoral things are greed, gluttony and self-indulgence. That's the opposite of charity. Now, I do understand that in an extreme minority of cases, there are unintended consequences, but this isn't the major feature of charity, and neither is charity the main driver of these kinds of consequences. Most often they are a result of the aforementioned opposite. And they surely don't make the act of charity immoral. So why focus on them?

If only where was one time of the year when giving was a priority and charity was most respected ......
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
To be clear, I'm not arguing that giving is ever immoral (except giving STDs and plague infected blankets to indians). I'm only arguing that, if you really want help someone, giving handouts might not be the most effective method of accomplishing your goal. Even so, a handout is morally superior to withholding any/all giving at all.

I agree that unintended consequences are , well, unintended, and don't factor into the morality of an act. Giving is always good. We should however, if we have more than just a passing interest in being helpful, strive to understand the problem and help in the most effective way possible. That's what I'm doing now.

I've started by asking what is the most effective way to help a homeless veteran. Last week a homeless veteran approached me at a gas pump. He presented me a folded up copy of someone's (maybe his own) DD214 out of his wallet for proof of his veteran status; btw i didn't ask for it. I didn't have any cash but i gave a pack of cigarettes and 2lbs of chocolate i had just bought for the kids. He was gracious, or at least said that he was. Do you think that really helped him? What could I have done better for him?
 

Brownout

Joined Jan 10, 2012
2,390
To be clear, I'm not arguing that giving is ever immoral (except giving STDs and plague infected blankets to indians). I'm only arguing that, if you really want help someone, giving handouts might not be the most effective method of accomplishing your goal. Even so, a handout is morally superior to withholding any/all giving at all.
The last paragraph of my previous post was not in relation to anything you have written. It was directed at the overall thread.

I agree that unintended consequences are , well, unintended, and don't factor into the morality of an act. Giving is always good. We should however, if we have more than just a passing interest in being helpful, strive to understand the problem and help in the most effective way possible. That's what I'm doing now.
Agree.


What could I have done better for him?
That would be a personal choice. It would depend on several factors beyond my knowledge. My main thing is to not support any leaders who talk a good game but don't step up to the plate when it counts.
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
17,496
...I do understand that in an extreme minority of cases, there are unintended consequences....
But that's the thing - it's not an extreme minority. It's quite common. I won't say it's the rule.

Giving things to people tends to destroy them. It's hard to avoid while doing good things.

Even the rich struggle with this basic fact as they raise their children. No one wants to deny their children everything they want, but good parents know they have to.

You should examine your own good feelings any time you engage in charity. Philosophers still study whether there is really such a thing as altruism, or whether it's just a manifestation of egoism.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top