Anarchy in the UK

Kermit2

Joined Feb 5, 2010
4,162
A gun is a tool. The Great Equalizer, as someone already pointed out.

Fear of citizens having guns means what? You are afraid that someone will suddenly become a mass murderer because he is allowed to be armed? Is not it more likely that any one wanting to commit murder will acquire the means to do so, whether or not they are 'allowed' to by law? Criminals will have a gun for the commission of crimes, if they desire one. They are criminals, and will not care whether gun possession is outlawed or not. Why should law abiding citizens have the right of possessing guns taken away? Are you afraid of law abiding citizens or criminals? I fear criminals, and when I encounter one, I would like to think my government wishes me to NOT be a victim of the criminal. Should I call the police? certainly I should. Will that stop the criminal from doing something to me during the long, long wait that occurs AFTER the phone call? No, probably not. The police will arrive and 'protect me' by gathering information about what the person looked like and which direction did he leave in, and asking me what he did/stole, or maybe by drawing my outline in chalk on the sidewalk, or kitchen floor.

I would feel more 'protected', if I could face the criminal with a TOOL that makes me just as dangerous to him, as he is to me. Why does anyone want me to NOT do that? Are they getting a kick back of the profits from the criminals? :)
 

debe

Joined Sep 21, 2010
1,389
Hi Bill, you can still hunt here in Australia but the cost of licence & permits & the gun regulation paper work has put me off. My brother is a licenced gun dealer but the regulations on his shop are quite onerous. There has realy only been one massacre in Tasmania by a nutter that trigered the goverment to bann guns. Any other massacres have not involved the general public as its only been betwean bikers or gangs having a little shoot out betwean each other. No I do not feel protected by police here as its too late after an incedent, you are probably dead before they would get there. If you did defend your sellf here expect to be in court proving you were the victim.
 

HarveyH42

Joined Jul 22, 2007
426
The man who started it all, the one the police shot, what was he doing, or did? The focus is on the riots, and barely mention the cause. We had riots in Los Angles, over a man, Rodney King, being severely beaten, by a few of of the men in blue. He survived, and became a millionaire. This guy was no prince though, long criminal history, battery on law enforcement, domestic violence (put both his wife and daughter in the hospital), drugs, guns. The police went a little overboard, but sort of understandable, since the courts weren't keeping Mr. King off the streets, and they had to keep taking the risk of injury and death, each time the ran into him. The UK police should have contained this the first night, innocent people are getting hurt, property stolen and destroyed, possibility of somebody else getting kill. outrage and protesting is okay, but breaking the laws, and harming people, reckless destruction shouldn't be tolerated, regardless of the reason. Those who joined the riots, are now criminals, they have the choice of how badly they are to be punished for their crimes. Many could just go home, and be forgotten. Others will be arrested, charged, and likely get off light. Those without the sense to walk away from it, risk a beating or death. They know it, and there is no reason to disappoint them. They chose to become criminals, and to what degree. Don't know about the UK, but we have quite a few non-lethal crowd control methods, tear gas, water cannons, bean bags, rubber bullets, batons...
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
He survived, and became a millionaire.
And after a few years, he ended up on Celebrity Rehab in an attempt to kick his habit.

Three years later in 2011, Rodney King was arrested for suspicion of driving under the influence.
 

Thread Starter

JingleJoe

Joined Jul 23, 2011
186
Stay safe guys, this will eventually blow over. It will be interesting what the political fallout will be.
if only the end result was more like fallout, ah the good old days, roaming the wastes with no bills to pay or lawmen to answer to, no food either but you do get to spend all day blasting things with your laser rifle :)

But I digress;
Is anyone considering the riots are a symptom of a deeper disease, hopelessness?
Yes, although more definition of what you mean by hopelessness may be required, I think I agree with you.

As I may have already stated, the use of force just gives the rioters an excuse, thats all the "modern" people of our fucked up society wanted.
I saw a black man shouting about the riots, the gist of what he was saying was "times are hard so we rioted" thats like a small child who throws a tantrum when he cant get what he wants or steals the cookies from the jar he has been forbidden from eating.
All they wanted was an excuse to cause a riot because the nature of todays society is so dishonourable and violent and careless and selfish. People don't seem to realize that what they do doesn't make anyone happier, they don't think.
Ruled by a dictum of greed and "because I can" sure, you can do anything, but never they stop to think "should I?"

Well I suppose I ended up giving a peice of my mind on the riots instead of an answer to "why guns are bad".
If the army had pointed guns at the rioters, that would have been thier excuse to riot more "because the man is treating us horrible and the police-state regieme is oppressing the people" they'd say, bah, poppycock, they themselves are the oppressors.
 

TBayBoy

Joined May 25, 2011
148
Many modern societies have "pockets" of people who are under the economic poverty line, struggle daily to keep their heads above the water, and social support programs that are complicated, and frequently not geared to helping people succeed.

A couple of years ago, a study in my province regarding the support program for disabled people questioned why 2/3 of the people applying for disability were rejected, and of those 2/3 rds over 90% were later granted after an appeal process, sometimes taking years. The fundamental question was since 90% of the rejections were approved, why were they rejected in the first place. A question that still remains unanswered.

Some jurisdictions require welfare recipients to undergo drug testing, despite studies that show the percentage of alcohol and drug abuse in welfare recipients is no higher than that of the general population, there is a long arduous period of appeal if a false positive is reported, and no support for the children in the home while this process is underway.

Politicians are struggling with not only to deal with current crises, but to find easy solutions to appear like they are dealing with the crisis.

These pockets of citizens are frequently under valued, under educated, hosting emotional and mental illness, and under pressure of loosing what little support they do have, something happens and this all boils over in an instant and we have these riots.

I'm not saying this is the only cause, certainly there were people in the melee of affluent means. I'm just saying throwing thousands in jail and loosing the key doesn't "fix" the problem, just delays it from re-appearing again for a few years, till the cycle repeats again.
 

Thread Starter

JingleJoe

Joined Jul 23, 2011
186
Those certainly do seem like hopeless situations. I can see what you mean.
However, these riots were without cause, nor against any kind of injustice. They were more like a brief intensifying of a skin rash, the stance of the rioters was there before and it's still there now only now it's easier to cover up because it isn't blistering out all over the face of society. (thats the best similie I can think of, sorry :p )
 

TBayBoy

Joined May 25, 2011
148
Those certainly do seem like hopeless situations. I can see what you mean.
However, these riots were without cause, nor against any kind of injustice. They were more like a brief intensifying of a skin rash, the stance of the rioters was there before and it's still there now only now it's easier to cover up because it isn't blistering out all over the face of society. (thats the best similie I can think of, sorry :p )
In a way yes, the feelings were there, and a shooting of a subject sparked the rash into flair up. I pose to you, if you have a rash spreading on your body, and your doctor shrugs his solders, as the rash spreads how long are you going to stay with that doctor who is not curing you, or even taking it seriously.

So why do we accept such mediocre performance from our politicians? A few months ago during our federal election, one analyst commented "we live in a country of over 30 million people, is this the best choice we can get?"

Been making me think :)
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
@TBayBoy I hear what you are saying and I don't disagree as to the cause of the riots that you have proposed. I do however feel that the "hopelessness" you have mentioned is subjective. If the people feel that it is the government's job to put food on their tables, then of course they will feel slighted when the government doesn't do that. I doubt the riots were comprised of disabled persons, and I doubt that able bodied young men with jobs requested time off from work to go participate. We have a growing problem of welfare dependency of persons who should be able to support themselves and a growing sense of entitlement here in USA and from what I understand you have it there in Canada and in the UK as well. At the same time that I criticize the welfare system leaches, I mourn the loss of millions of jobs to outsourcing. In my grandfather's day a man could graduate from high school (or not) and get an entry-level job that was sufficient to own a house and feed a family. That is nearly impossible to do now, but there are better alternatives to rioting. I wonder why if these people were trying to make a point to the government, then why are they attacking their fellow man? I know you have a history in the medical field, so I assume you are probably more altruistic than the average person, but I think your sympathies are misplaced here.
 

TBayBoy

Joined May 25, 2011
148
@ strantor I agree with much of your post, there is a problem with leeches on the welfare system, the two big issues I have, it the blanket painting of all welfare recipients as leaches, secondly (and only speaking of my province) there is no easily accessible system to work yourself off of welfare, to become or return to productive tax paying citizens. I would love to hear about other places around the world, how their system is set up for that.

Specifically yes few disabled persons seem to have participated in the riots; my point is, the frustration felt by disenfranchised persons is ripe ground for social unrest, whether it be a spark of riot that grows to flames.

On the topic of riots and disabled people, I remember reading a research report years ago about the LA riots following the Rodney King beating, what jumped out to the researchers is in video and photograph evidence from the mall looting, no looters parked in handicap parking at the malls.

So at least that social message is sinking in :)

Maybe we can pose better alternatives to rioting.
 

BillO

Joined Nov 24, 2008
999
I'm Irish, so take this at face value.

I think it's time for some payback to England...but hear me out.

England has conquered the world. For some strange reason though, they had to leave their mark too. It was not enough just to conquer and rule, but they had to mangle things as well. I'm not surprised that some folk feel a right to cause a little ruckus.

However.

The British will overcome and survive this. Just look at their history. As pompous as some of them are, they will pick themselves up and set things right. They always do, and the rest of us will learn and benefit from the effort.

(Okay, we can excuse the US from the whole 'conquer' thing, but from where does the US draw their [initial] roots and strength?)
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
@ strantor I agree with much of your post, there is a problem with leeches on the welfare system, the two big issues I have, it the blanket painting of all welfare recipients as leaches, secondly (and only speaking of my province) there is no easily accessible system to work yourself off of welfare, to become or return to productive tax paying citizens. I would love to hear about other places around the world, how their system is set up for that.
I know there is an agenda of some to paint all welfare recipients as leeches; that is not my agenda. You must forgive me, I know only what I have seen. I have several members of my own family on welfare; they are all leeches. My cousin was on welfare for years. She went through some kind of government program and they sent her to dental technician school for free. After she graduated, she applied at 3 different dentist's offices and never got a call back; never followed up, never applied anywhere else, just stayed at home still on welfare. that was years ago. Out of all the welfare leeches in my family, she is the only one who ventured even a feeble attempt at getting off of it. The rest of them apparently like where they are and have no plans of changing. Why would they? The system (the system of just handing out money, that is) cultivates new members to the welfare society. It should be less about helping people and more about helping people help themselves. More programs like the dental tech school, which I don't think is around anymore. Less checks in the mail. There should also be training available on how to get a job, how to keep a job, how to conduct yourself in the workplace; all these things seem like common sense to most, but I can see how a 2nd or 3rd generation welfare dependent wouldn't have a clue.
 

loosewire

Joined Apr 25, 2008
1,686
@ TBayBoy,I think I saw you In a picture In a medical van,so you must
get near poverty.In the U.S. you don't have to have a living address,you
can get your free benefits mailed to a post office box.Women with kids or
disabled can apply for free housing,while they are waiting they get money
to house there kids.Most poverty house holds are single parents.So It
seems to be a helpful way for the single parent to house there disabled
parents and there kids.With each s.s. number comes a check as needed
depending on the needs.So In one home you can many checks coming thru
postal boxes to share.The social way that means are shared are worked out without
too much stress.Along with the check come food cards that are tied to s.s. numbers.
There a saying It take community to raise a child,people In poverty live by that.
As the family grows the childred get older and disabled,then they can apply
for more benefits because there needs be come greater,and they start there own family
which is separate from all the other benefits. The males in some families become
disabled and can't work,no place to live because there kids need room to grow
and nourish, disability is a big thing in the poverty world.Some become disabled
for life requireing nursing care,at the least they need a rented room.There are
vendors that have houses for that purpose.There Is thousands of communities of famlies that
are at the poverty level that they will never rise above It.Bad luck bring more bad luck
In the way of health care that must be addressed.Take any family with an Illness
and you can see your self there.As one family member shares It draines the
resources from the family putting you In revovling poverty.
 
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strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
Most poverty house holds are single parents.So It seems to be a helpful way for the single parent to house there disabled parents and there kids... As the family grows the childred get older and disabled,then they can apply for more benefits because there needs be come greater,and they start there own family
which is separate from all the other benefits. The males ...become disabled and can't work,no place to live ...Some become disabled
for life requireing nursing care,at the least they need a rented room.
I agree with what you said about revolving poverty; I have seen it with my own eyes. but what is it about being in poverty that causes people to become disabled?

Speaking of disabled, before I was born my father lost his arm right below the elbow in a oil field work-related accident. He didn't recieve any compensation from the company. He somehow managed to stay off of welfare, returning to work (the same job) in less than 2 months. He hasn't stopped working for more than a 3 day weekend in the past 25 years. He can do anything that 2 handed people can do; most often better than they can. My uncle on the other hand developed a "bad back" around the same time and the poor guy had to sit around the house for 25 years. During this extended period of severe disability he somehow managed to restore a tour bus for tens of thousands of dollars profit, build several award-winning BBQ smoker pits, and had a his own little backyard mechanic business for which he paid no taxes.
I tell this story (true story) to make the point that "disabled" is often subjective and that in a large number of cases, one wanting to claim disability could easily do so, however if in the same situation if the same person wanted to continue working, they could just as easily do that. Maybe having my father as an example growing up has hardened my sense of compassion for those claiming to be disabled. I watched him endure wrenching pain in his back every night & morning from lifting heavy objects at work, but never according to "proper lifting techniques" because had only one hand. I observed his frustration with prosthetic hooks and hands. In his old age, I am now watching his good arm go bad and his spine slump to one side from overuse of the one side of his body. I also watched him succeed; he never gave up on anything. He is still working. I keep telling him to take a vacation, but we both know that he wouldn't know what to do on vacation. When I see the 600lb people in walmart who ride the little motorized carts because they're too fat/lazy to walk, I wonder what goes through their minds when they go home and see the one-legged man running marathons on TV. When I see them check out at the counter with food stamps it angers me. I feel more sorry for the motorized cart than I do for them.
 
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