Home Owner says since I was the last one to touch the breaker it is my responsibility to pay for the repair.
09-2-16 the i, Electrical Contractor. (EC) turned off all the breakers in the panel during a trouble shooting process to identify a problem with the stand by home generator. Also present was the home owner (HO) and EC helper. EC then turned all the breakers back on.

11-2 -16 EC worked on the generator to replace a part, and took pictures of the panel and 200 amp transfer switch to propose a new and larger generator a few minutes before I departed. EC did not touch any breakers in the panel on this day.
12-23-16 (2 months later) HO calls the EC to inform that I left the breaker off and the hot tub froze resulting in over $3500 of repair. EC can clearly see from the pictures he took at his last visit that all the breakers in the panel are in the on position (see attached). HO’s argument is that even if the breaker was indicating the handle was in the on position that it could still not be conducting power. I do agree that this possible. However my experience is this could happen to a breaker that trips ,not when a breaker is turned on. However even if the breaker malfunctioned by the handle staying in the on position. I should not be responsible for it.

FACTS. 1) Hot tub breaker is a 60 amp GFCI, 2) EC did turn this breaker off then back on two months ago 3) HO states he does not know what position the breaker was n, Just that the hot tub was frozen and when he turned the breaker off and back on, water was spewing indicating busted pipes. 4) Hot tub repair contractor replaced five motors with pumps and some plumbing was changed as part of the repair on 1-7-17. Note that the Heater was not. 5) Hot tub has been running with no problems for 3 weeks so far after the repair. If the consensus is I am responsible I will pay for the repair.

 

I say regardless of who did what, the onus lies on the HO to verify hot-tub is functional there after.

 

This is going to be settled in court not here. If you explain it like you did above to the judge you are going to lose as he/she will likely fall asleep listening to your explanation.

 

That's new to me. Where did it say that DC was a renter?
What is DC's connection in all of this?

 

What is DC's connection in all of this?

See the second sentence in Post #3.

 

That's new to me. Where did it say that DC was a renter?
What is DC's connection in all of this?

DC is DC Energy is me, the Electrical Contractor who was hired to repair the generator. No renter involved. I was not even working on the hot tub.The issue is that, I turned the breaker for the hot tub off then I turned back on as a process of trouble shooting the generator.
Also Sorry that the description is so dry and boring. I was trying to get the facts out without a long drawn out story.

 

In my books it's not your responsibility any more than you getting flat tire on the way home is the responsibility of the guy who mounted yor tires who knows when and where.

Since you mention that the tub is powered through a GFCI breaker that device could have done exactly what it is designed to do for any number of reasons between when you left and when the tub actually froze due to any number of reasons.
One pump could have developed a tiny ground fault and cause it to trip. A water line could have sprung a leak and caused a ground fault in some part of the wiring or even a common power line voltage spike could have caused it to trip. None of that is your fault or responsibility.

The fact you have a picture of the breaker panel showing that the breaker in question was in fact in the correct on position when you left logically says it was working and whatever caused the shutdown happened after you left.

Now the thing I have to question is if the tub was on and running when you left and it eventually froze there had to be a considerable amount of time passage for it to do so , several hundred gallons of water at 100F inside a insulated container doesn't just drop to freeze point instantly, and where was the homeowner during that whole time?

I thing the homeowner just wants someone else to pay for his laziness in not having properly checked this tub out before the cold weather set in.

 

Also Sorry that the description is so dry and boring. I was trying to get the facts out without a long drawn out story.

Unlike others I take my ADD meds and rather enjoy reading long drawn out boring but detailed descriptions.

 

DC is DC Energy is me, the Electrical Contractor who was hired to repair the generator. No renter involved. I was not even working on the hot tub.The issue is that, I turned the breaker for the hot tub off then I turned back on as a process of trouble shooting the generator.
Also Sorry that the description is so dry and boring. I was trying to get the facts out without a long drawn out story.

Thanks for the clarification.
As spinnaker advises:
You were hired by HO to repair the generator. When you left the premises the breakers were set to the ON position. End of your story.

 

In my books it's not your responsibility any more than you getting flat tire on the way home is the responsibility of the guy who mounted yor tires who knows when and where.

Since you mention that the tub is powered through a GFCI breaker that device could have done exactly what it is designed to do for any number of reasons between when you left and when the tub actually froze due to any number of reasons.
One pump could have developed a tiny ground fault and cause it to trip. A water line could have sprung a leak and caused a ground fault in some part of the wiring or even a common power line voltage spike could have caused it to trip. None of that is your fault or responsibility.

The fact you have a picture of the breaker panel showing that the breaker in question was in fact in the correct on position when you left logically says it was working and whatever caused the shutdown happened after you left.

Now the thing I have to question is if the tub was on and running when you left and it eventually froze there had to be a considerable amount of time passage for it to do so , several hundred gallons of water at 100F inside a insulated container doesn't just drop to freeze point instantly, and where was the homeowner during that whole time?

I thing the homeowner just wants someone else to pay for his laziness in not having properly checked this tub out before the cold weather set in.

My thoughts exactly. As part of the repair, the hot tub contractor replaced all 5 pump and motors and then threw them away. .So if the issue that may have caused the GFCI breaker was a faulty motor, that would possibly explain why the tub has not tripped again. The hot tub contractor says he replaced the motors because the pump parts were no longer available. It is a 10 year old Artesian. Hottub. .

 

It depends on the amount. State laws are different. Your land lord might be use to civil court. You are not.

You will need legal advise and possibly the EC witness. Maybe even a courtroom lawyer. In some states you can claim lawyer fees if you win. It all depends on your state and local laws.

 

A freeze-up shouldn't harm the 5 motors. It might damage the pump housing, but the motors should have been okay. With your photo of the service panel at the end of your service call, you have the proper evidence that the hot tub was properly powered on. If the breaker was bad, this is the HO's responsibility, not yours (unless he hired you to check the breakers, which he did not).

You did your due diligence to ensure that all the power was properly back on when you left (and you have the photo to prove it). You are not liable.

 

Did the HO contact you before the repairs ???

 

I don't know how a court would see it. But in my view the responsibility falls by default on the homeowner. To pass off that responsibility requires hard proof pointing at someone else. As TC noted, that breaker could have tripped for many reasons unrelated to the EC visit. So there cannot be hard proof. Combined with the photo, which by itself demonstrates attention to the issue of the breakers, I don't see a convincing argument to shift the burden off the HO.

 

Anyway, what kind of an idiot operates a hot tub outside in the winter without some sort of freeze warning system - or draining the thing - or properly winterizing it?

 

My thoughts exactly. As part of the repair, the hot tub contractor replaced all 5 pump and motors and then threw them away.

It would not surprise me one bit if what he really did wa take them back the shop and put new pump heads on them that he did have instock the resell them to someone else for a sizable profit.
I know for a fact its a common scam here (so it has to be most everywhere else too) . I have had the displeasure of working for a few local business that did that crap to their customer base all the time.

The hot tub contractor says he replaced the motors because the pump parts were no longer available. It is a 10 year old Artesian. Hottub. .

I'd almost bet on he lied being a quick internet search for Artesian hot tub parts brought up loads of places that I see carry pretty much every part of one of their tubs ever made.

BTW I have a hot tub I got for free and I can say for sure that the pumps plus the majority of the plumbing in it are what I would call standard issue generic components that I can find off the shelf replacements for at most any home center. Locally we have Menards here and I know for a fact they carry every pipe and even a selection of pumps I would ever need to be able to rebuild my tub at any time and at prices that are substantially less than the local hot tub dealers sell the same stuff for.

Anyway, what kind of an idiot operates a hot tub outside in the winter without some sort of freeze warning system - or draining the thing - or properly winterizing it?

99.99+ % of them.

Just because someone owns something doesn't mean they know a damn thing about taking care of it.

 

i suppose all lights that have failed since you left are also your fault?

you had nothing to do with the hot tub on arrival and departure. the plumbing fix was probably what caused the breaker to trip out.

you took a pic of the panel when you left, that should be date and time stamped. and get HO to prove otherwise

 

The freeze warning on my pool only operates if there is power being supplied. Absense of an alarm can mean that the alarm is not working not that the condition is not present.

 

The freeze warning on my pool only operates if there is power being supplied. Absense of an alarm can mean that the alarm is not working not that the condition is not present.

Maybe that's acceptable in Walnut Creek (nice place!), but it would be nucking futs where I live.

 

I narrowly missed an opportunity for one of these. The owner of One-Stop Auto Parts said he needed a way to protect his air conditioners from a dropped phase. I told him I knew where to get the right protectors and he replied, "You aren't big enough to sue."

A big, jaw drop, WTF?
He didn't want to protect his machinery. He wanted to make some electrician buy him new air conditioners!
If that's how successful business people think, I can certainly understand why I'm not one.