There are no ideal components. Perhaps your real question is: “what are the fundamental relationships that allow us to describe circuits”. That is, the mathematical description of circuits not to be confused with practical circuits themselves.

The components that comprise practical circuits with have families with many species in each one. The effect of their physical arrangement can be described mathematically in various ways that convert them into a collection of “ideal“ components but they will never be those.

What you are exploring, I think, is the description of circuits not the circuits in the world.

 

Whatever you do you have to have data sheets say that over and over and over again

 

What you are exploring, I think, is the description of circuits not the circuits in the world.

That is the nature if thought experiments.

Bob

 

That is the nature if thought experiments.

Bob

I can't agree with that. My point is you are operating in one domain and talking about another. Thought experiment notwithstanding.

 

I can't agree with that. My point is you are operating in one domain and talking about another. Thought experiment notwithstanding.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

For starters, which of my questions, are you questioning?

To restate them, in more detail:

I contend that resistors capacitors, inductors, diodes, an amplifying device, of which BJTs, JFETs, MOSFETS, and triodes, would be examples, plus a voltage source, are all that is needed to mimic any purely electronic circuit. Ie, one whose inputs and outputs are only voltages and currents. Let’s not deal with devices that depend on environmental inputs, such as light, temperature etc. And we ignore things like speed, we can make our hypothetical components any speed we need.

First question: Is this true? Can you refute it?

Second question, are they minimal, or can we remove one of them? Not sure on this one. A gyrator, for instance, exhibits some of the behavior of an inductor, and is made with an opamp, resistors and capacitors.

Third question, is there an alternate set of comoonents that would do the same. I proposed a delay element, which can replace some uses of capacitors, but not all, I think.

Bob

 

I have no idea what you mean by that.

For starters, which of my questions, are you questioning?

To restate them, in more detail:

I contend that resistors capacitors, inductors, diodes, an amplifying device, of which BJTs, JFETs, MOSFETS, and triodes, would be examples, plus a voltage source, are all that is needed to mimic any purely electronic circuit. Ie, one whose inputs and outputs are only voltages and currents. Let’s not deal with devices that depend on environmental inputs, such as light, temperature etc. And we ignore things like speed, we can make our hypothetical components any speed we need.

First question: Is this true? Can you refute it?

Second question, are they minimal, or can we remove one of them? Not sure on this one. A gyrator, for instance, exhibits some of the behavior of an inductor, and is made with an opamp, resistors and capacitors.

Third question, is there an alternate set of comoonents that would do the same. I proposed a delay element, which can replace some uses of capacitors, but not all, I think.

Bob

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed-element_circuit

Distributed-element circuits are designed with the distributed-element model, an alternative to the lumped-element model in which the passive electrical elements of electrical resistance, capacitance and inductance are assumed to be "lumped" at one point in space in a resistor, capacitor or inductor, respectively. The distributed-element model is used when this assumption no longer holds, and these properties are considered to be distributed in space. The assumption breaks down when there is significant time for electromagnetic waves to travel from one terminal of a component to the other; "significant", in this context, implies enough time for a noticeable phase change. The amount of phase change is dependent on the wave's frequency (and inversely dependent on wavelength). A common rule of thumb amongst engineers is to change from the lumped to the distributed model when distances involved are more than one-tenth of a wavelength (a 36° phase change). The lumped model completely fails at one-quarter wavelength (a 90° phase change), with not only the value, but the nature of the component not being as predicted. Due to this dependence on wavelength, the distributed-element model is used mostly at higher frequencies; at low frequencies, distributed-element components are too bulky. Distributed designs are feasible above 300 MHz, and are the technology of choice at microwave frequencies above 1 GHz.[1]

 

I have no idea what you mean by that.

For starters, which of my questions, are you questioning?

To restate them, in more detail:

I contend that resistors capacitors, inductors, diodes, an amplifying device, of which BJTs, JFETs, MOSFETS, and triodes, would be examples, plus a voltage source, are all that is needed to mimic any purely electronic circuit. Ie, one whose inputs and outputs are only voltages and currents. Let’s not deal with devices that depend on environmental inputs, such as light, temperature etc. And we ignore things like speed, we can make our hypothetical components any speed we need.

First question: Is this true? Can you refute it?

Second question, are they minimal, or can we remove one of them? Not sure on this one. A gyrator, for instance, exhibits some of the behavior of an inductor, and is made with an opamp, resistors and capacitors.

Third question, is there an alternate set of comoonents that would do the same. I proposed a delay element, which can replace some uses of capacitors, but not all, I think.

Bob

As with many philosophical discussions, there is so much to unpack that without a long and probably fruitless exposition on why I think you are mixing domains we won’t have a meeting of minds.

I don’t think you are wrong about the idea you are entertaining. I believe you aren’t operating in a single domain, drawing clear lines between things and descriptions of their qualities, and so the analogies necessary to describe what you are saying will rapidly invalidate themselves.

There is something interesting here, to be sure. Think about ICs where they have to make caps and resistors and only have the same silicon that is used for the transistors. Also, think about transistors which are not “amplifying devices”, that is a application of the transistor.

I’ll bow out, but please don’t imagine I am “refuting” you, which is a very negative idea, that’s not it at all. I am sorry if I appeared to be adopting an attitude that communicated that.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed-element_circuit

Interesting. This answers my third question, in part. At least their are some alternate components that operate in some frequency domain.

I am more interested in general components that are ideal and have no physical limitations based on parasitic effects, for example.

Actually, I think I have an existance proof that just resistors and a ditital inverting switch are sufficient. I believe I can construct a digital computer, an A/D and D/A converter from those components alone. Then I can simulate any black box to whatever level of accuracy is specified.


Bob

 

Interesting. This answers my third question, in part. At least their are some alternate components that operate in some frequency domain.

I am more interested in general components that are ideal and have no physical limitations based on parasitic effects, for example.

Actually, I think I have an existance proof that just resistors and a ditital inverting switch are sufficient. I believe I can construct a digital computer, an A/D and D/A converter from those components alone. Then I can simulate any black box to whatever level of accuracy is specified.


Bob

Ideal components with no physical limitations (in the limited realm of circuit theory) are still based on the limits of physics that mandate Distributed-element circuits due to the speed limit of EM transmission across space at some point in the specifications of some types of blackbox's (a cellphone is a good example). There is no such thing as instantaneous change across space.

The interesting thing is that ideal components actually limit the range of circuit theory calculations. Parasitic effects are a hack (a simplification of non-conservative fields and like effects) to “fool” Kirchhoff’s law and extend the range of lumped component circuit analysis when distributed element effects are occurring in the circuit..