A most unusual 96 pole generator. Let's get it working.

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
WARNING: High powered magnets should be treated with care and respect. Failure to do so will lead to injuries. Proceed with caution.

What we have here is an array of 96 class 45 magnets at 60x10x5 mm
All oriented to repel each other.

1652367712623.png

1st thing I'd like to learn. Is this to be considered an Hallbach array? And if yes why?

2nd. What bearing can I use to start experimenting with spinning this thing around over the coils? Current setup is far too wobly. Most notably the bearing out of view that is small and wobbly.
 

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
The reason for them to be oriented to repel is two fold.

1) so I can reduce the radius from +- 80cm to +- 50 cm
2) to increase the field strength of the magnets

Both goals have been met

I meant diameter, not radius
 
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ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
1,814
your current arrangement results in the field strength equipotentials of the rotated trapezoid . . . and i guess the strongest magnetic flux is been aligned out of reach . . . it is quite unusual indeed

if you insert the magnetic conductor sheets (thin) in between each pair then the eddy currents would be opposing . . . i assume ??? are you sure your magnet array isn't a heating element
 
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panic mode

Joined Oct 10, 2011
2,129
to deal with wobble add second bearing some 30cm away and connect couple of links from it to perimeter of your current disc, the conical structure will be much stiffer.
 

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
if you insert the magnetic conductor sheets
I have been searching high and low. My conclusion. Unobtanium.
are you sure your magnet array isn't a heating element
No at all, please elaborate?

to deal with wobble add second bearing some 30cm away and connect couple of links from it to perimeter of your current disc, the conical structure will be much stiffer.
30 cm from center or outer edge? Would you happen to have a graphical representation of where you are suggesting towards?

your current arrangement results in the field strength equipotentials of the rotated trapezoid . . . and i guess the strongest magnetic flux is been aligned out of reach
I am fairly sure I have no idea what that means ;) But now the field lines of one magnet are forced to loop back to the other pole of it's self. And since the force (from the opposing magnet) that forces it to do so is equally strong what we end up with is a loop with a far taller yet narrower spread. IDEAL for running over coils.

your current arrangement results in the field strength equipotentials of the rotated trapezoid . . . and i guess the strongest magnetic flux is been aligned out of reach . . . it is quite unusual indeed

if you insert the magnetic conductor sheets (thin) in between each pair then the eddy currents would be opposing . . . i assume ??? are you sure your magnet array isn't a heating element
I meant I am not at all sure regarding whether the array is a heating element or not. I did not mean to suggest it is not at all a heating element.
 

panic mode

Joined Oct 10, 2011
2,129
you have a disc with large diameter but very thin.
if you put this on a shaft and try to rotate it will wobble because length to with ratio is so small.
if you put shaft through a pipe and try to turn, pipe will not have much space to wobble since the ratio is much greater.

so place behind your disc another bearing sufficiently far away to change the ratio.
common way to make things stiffer is by using principles of truss - triangular shapes are rigid since each element is either in compression or tension which is ideal.

1652388998523.png
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
9,372
But now the field lines of one magnet are forced to loop back to the other pole of it's self. And since the force (from the opposing magnet) that forces it to do so is equally strong what we end up with is a loop with a far taller yet narrower spread. IDEAL for running over coils.
Can you illustrate how that works? From what I've learned about magnets if the poles fold back on themselves there are very little useful field lines available, because it's a self contained loop. And that is the worse situation for EMF generation in a coil.
 

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
Can you illustrate how that works? From what I've learned about magnets if the poles fold back on themselves there are very little useful field lines available, because it's a self contained loop. And that is the worse situation for EMF generation in a coil.
Sure. let's dust off my rusty drawing skills ;)
1652415248486.png
Super crude representation of at the top a more typical arrangement.
Since the fields are attracted they weaken quite fast with distance from the magnets. Not a lot of space to have coils that way.

Below is a representation of the current arrangement. It's a hell of a fight getting the magnets in place and keeping them there. It is not something I'd recommend for the casual hobbyist to try. Only when determined.
So the field strength never changes. I did not word that correctly earlier. The fields are now more focused and go further away from the magnets creating more space for coils.

In terms of coils. I intend to put coils on both sides of the magnets.
 

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
you have a disc with large diameter but very thin.
if you put this on a shaft and try to rotate it will wobble because length to with ratio is so small.
if you put shaft through a pipe and try to turn, pipe will not have much space to wobble since the ratio is much greater.

so place behind your disc another bearing sufficiently far away to change the ratio.
common way to make things stiffer is by using principles of truss - triangular shapes are rigid since each element is either in compression or tension which is ideal.

View attachment 267054
Thank you for your efforts. I think you have gotten me on the right track.

You made me realize it is already time to attach the magnet disk to a column. It are the coil disks that will be needing bearings.

I went about it all wrong earlier.

I went about it all wrong earlier.
Hmmm choices choices. What to try first. If we make the coils spin rather than the magnets we would be spinning less mass and also give the coils some heat dissipation help.

you have a disc with large diameter but very thin.
if you put this on a shaft and try to rotate it will wobble because length to with ratio is so small.
if you put shaft through a pipe and try to turn, pipe will not have much space to wobble since the ratio is much greater.

so place behind your disc another bearing sufficiently far away to change the ratio.
common way to make things stiffer is by using principles of truss - triangular shapes are rigid since each element is either in compression or tension which is ideal.

View attachment 267054
btw, you have got some wicked drawing skills. As I have moved away from windows to linux I still have not found a program that let's me easily do stuff like that.
Any suggestions anyone?

don't bother guys. patent already pending and once it turns out a great success it will all become open source

my first lie. patent pending ;). do not expect much of them though;)The open source is all I care about. set the world free!!!
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
9,372
Sure. let's dust off my rusty drawing skills ;)
View attachment 267075
Super crude representation of at the top a more typical arrangement.
Since the fields are attracted they weaken quite fast with distance from the magnets. Not a lot of space to have coils that way.

Below is a representation of the current arrangement. It's a hell of a fight getting the magnets in place and keeping them there. It is not something I'd recommend for the casual hobbyist to try. Only when determined.
So the field strength never changes. I did not word that correctly earlier. The fields are now more focused and go further away from the magnets creating more space for coils.

In terms of coils. I intend to put coils on both sides of the magnets.
Well that's sure a new one. My guess is that your trying to generate DC instead of AC. I think in the end you'll find out why no one has ever done it like you're trying. Or at least not successfully.
 

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
Well that's sure a new one. My guess is that your trying to generate DC instead of AC. I think in the end you'll find out why no one has ever done it like you're trying. Or at least not successfully.
nah.. already in earlier fields tests I have demonstrated to expect around 360 volts at 60 rpm. but I need to ramp up the game now. get more stable structures and more trustworthy data.

EDIT: I meant at 120 rpm. that is is fast as I would like this generator to rotate
EDIT2: This is going to be a 3 phase generator
 

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
I think that one will find that sometimes one needs to go against the grain to discover something new.

take my transformer thread for example. that one certainly got a lot of septicemic. I am already at 39% effeciency. And I am not giving up yet.

Mind you that I have bought a Tesla meter to confirm my thinking regarding this generator. So unless there is research that invalidates my train of though I'd say. Let's get this thing working ;)
 

panic mode

Joined Oct 10, 2011
2,129
btw, you have got some wicked drawing skills. As I have moved away from windows to linux I still have not found a program that let's me easily do stuff like that.
Any suggestions anyone?
i often need to sketch things, and since there is always some windows machine around, i try to use Paint as the bottom level product. of course it could be done nicer using some CAD but this took 30 seconds and was quicker than loading something heavier...
 

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
My guess is that your trying to generate DC instead of AC
Can you please tel us more how to generate DC power with a spinning disk of reversing magnetic poles? Because yes in the end it needs to be converted to DC power for this particular project
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
9,372
Can you please tel us more how to generate DC power with a spinning disk of reversing magnetic poles? Because yes in the end it needs to be converted to DC power for this particular project
Without a commutator you can't. But I don't see how your getting a reversing poles from the second drawing you show. But then again I'm no expert.
 

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
Without a commutator you can't. But I don't see how your getting a reversing poles from the second drawing you show. But then again I'm no expert.
Understood. Then either ask me for a run down or just jump on the band wagon and ride along given my extensive practical experience over the last year or so.
 

ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
1,814
i do agree your magnetic field lines geometry changes but - i doubt that sweeping thin and strong gradients over coils does any more miracles than sweeping modest but more homegeneous ones you basically integrate over coils

. . . there might be a miracle if you present some innovative coil alignment - as when the intercept area sees only two ?flat? wires . . . and there are greatly more coils than there are magnets . . . . . . it likely compensates with (can be "traded" to greater) rotation speed <- <- byt then the coils also must have very LOW inductance and to reduce losses even LOWER resistance . . . it tends to cryo-science ?
 
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MrSalts

Joined Apr 2, 2020
1,762
Right now you have a two-pole magnet (inner radius and outer radius - draw out the magnetic fields to see what happens. Or, set it flat and lay a piece of white paper on top and sprinkle some of your iron powder over it to see where the lines of flus may be.

If you want 96 poles, flip every other one so you'll have a strong change in current each time a pole passes a coil on the stator. the power comes from cutting though lines of flux with a conductor. Keep the coils close to your magnets wheile the magnets are moving.
 

ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
1,814
nearly off-topic : 1-st an interesting contrast in between the results of the "same" experiment , then something curious
 

Thread Starter

quitenoob

Joined Mar 27, 2022
262
i do agree your magnetic field lines geometry changes but - i doubt that sweeping thin and strong gradients over coils does any more miracles than sweeping modest but more homegeneous ones you basically integrate over coils
Can you, or any reader of this thread, help me setup a field test to settle this debate?

EDIT: I have an actual Tesla meter to help out

i do agree your magnetic field lines geometry changes but -
nah never mind. I am sure that field intensity is directly related to coil generation potential.
I'll stick to my gut feeling until I learn I was wrong

If you want 96 poles,
I do not want 96 poles by dear brother. I already have

i do agree your magnetic field lines geometry changes but - i doubt that sweeping thin and strong gradients over coils does any more miracles than sweeping modest but more homegeneous ones you basically integrate over coils
It actually does. the generation of electricity comes from a shift in magnetic field in the coils. Also having more winds in a coil is demonstrably more power potential than less winds. Given that the medium we are using is not a high frequency one it is save to say that the coils have enough time, i.e have little reluctance.

So no. I am pretty sure about this one ;) no nagging thought here that make me need to dig deeper.

I'd like to focus more on the mechanical aspect of this all. Like I asked about. And also about the it being a hallbach array or not.
 
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