40 volt 3 wire brushless lawnmower motor

Thread Starter

Demonsgirl

Joined Aug 22, 2021
11
I have a Ryobi motor and controller using a 3 wire brushless 40 volt motor out of a lawn mower. I want to make a battery powered portable water pump. I need to know how this operates. There are various safeties which can be bypassed for my application. There is a four wire bundle (black, brown, yellow, Red) coming out of the controller which I believe should turn the motor on If i can figure out which combo I need. I have messed around with a little and found out they turn on the LED lights by just touching them. From the wiring diagram it seems pretty straight forward Yellow and Red connect to the black. I don't see the brown wire in the diagram labeled in the drawing like the other four. I have melted the pin on the red wire by connecting it to ? which I don't remember. This short could have killed the controller but I don't know that yet. There is also a 4 wire ribbon (all gray wires) labeled tilt sensor for which I can find no information or a part #. This is supposed to turn off the motor if the angle exceeds 45 degrees. Do I need the sensor on there? Can I bypass this somehow? Or if is not connected is it inoperable? Would anybody be able to steer me onto the correct path? Are there controllers that would work for this motor that have no safeties? Thanks in advance for any help here.
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Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
6,374
I will speak only of things I know. Even then sometimes I'm proven wrong.

A Three Wire motor is a 3 phase motor. The controller turns one phase on at a time. There is probably some overlap between phases. Depending on which phases are energized in what order - the motor will spin in a certain direction. For instance if phase A is first to be turned on, then B, then A off, then C on, then B off, then A on, then C off - - - and so on; the motor will spin in (not necessarily clockwise, but lets assume for the moment it does) the motor will spin in the clockwise direction. If you reverse the order then the motor will spin in the opposite direction (counter-clockwise) (or "Anti-clockwise" as some would say).

The tilt sensor and bag sensor (safety devices) tell the controller if things are right for mowing the lawn. To bypass them you have to figure out which leads act like a conductor or switch. Then you can (supposedly - again, I don't know for sure) but then you can short those wires together and the controller will think it has safe operating conditions.

You want to turn a lawnmower into a pump? Why?
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
23,805
A Three Wire motor is a 3 phase motor. The controller turns one phase on at a time. There is probably some overlap between phases.
Sounds like you are getting confused between 3 ph AC and a BLDC motor, both are virtually identical, just the commutation is different.
Either way it is a ECM (electronically commutated motor) if it has 3 motor leads, that is.
In the absence of schematics, some reverse-engineering is required.
.
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
1,189
This looks very simple to me, other than the reason why they decided to
use so many separate wires for the Safety-Control-Loop.

The top (handlebar) switches all have to be connected for anything to work.
Unless they decided for some reason that one or more of them needs to be
"open" for the Motor to run.
I can't think of a good reason to do this, but a check with a meter will verify
whether or not they are normally-open or normally-closed.

Again, there's another "possibility",
that they went to the effort of requiring the switches
to be enabled in a certain sequence, but I doubt it,
this will be verified or disproved by reading the Owners-Manual.

The "Bag Sensor" is another Owners-Manual thing as to whether the
Switch must remain closed or open to enable Power to the Motor.

"Start-Key-Terminal" can be bypassed, there's no need to employ
a high-Current Battery-Switch when You have all these other low-Current options.

Orange is the Battery-Temp-Sensor, and should be retained as is.

The "Tilt-Sensor" may be useful.
Do You want your Pump to continue running if it gets knocked-over some how ???
Leave it as is.

The LEDs will probably tell You which Safety-Switch-Loop is open.

All of this stuff can be put to good use.
It sounds like You want to chop it all out simply because
You don't completely understand how it all works just yet.

Make your own drawings and note-down what the Switches do and why.

There are Controllers that could run this Motor,
it's even possible to build your own.
But there is zero advantage in doing this.
You already have a "ruggedized", perfectly matched Controller,
that might even be water-proof.
.
.
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MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
9,541
The very first step should have been to accurately make a drawing of all the connections, before taking anything apart. If the mower was functional you could then work at bypassing the various safety switches one at a time, That would have let you see what switches could be simply removed and which ones had to be bypassed. When it was done you would have exactly what you needed, and known what you needed to have to run the system. Then, disconnecting the battery would allow safely removing all of he wiring and keeping the right bypasses in place. That pretty picture does not show which terminal wires go to, which does matter for all the devices with more than two wires. And now the question remains about the motor speed matching the required pump speed. Most electric mower motors spin quite fast, while most pumps require a lower speed and more torque. But that is a separate concern.
 

Thread Starter

Demonsgirl

Joined Aug 22, 2021
11
I guess I should have been a bit better at describing the situation. I do have the motor and controller out of a Ryobi lawnmower but no mower. I bought the combo off Ebay said to be working. I didn't figure it would be this hard to get it running. I'm going to connect the motor to a water pump which I already have. Right now I have a small Honda water pump which runs on gasoline. My water source is a small spring about 80 feet below me. I want to avoid using gasoline. I just converted my small Yamaha generator (1000 watt) to run on propane (500 gallon tank) to get rid of that gasoline. I have no utility AC at the site so run the generator just for a few lights at night and charge batteries (refrigerator propane also propane lights if needed). I have other Ryobi 40 volt tools (chain saw, weed whipper) so already have batteries and chargers. I really don't want to worry about bringing gasoline any more. I came up with the plan for a battery pump when I found out the HP is about the same for the Honda and the BDLC motor (hard to get any exact numbers on this). I tried looking up the motor and controller for information but stuck out. Motor is a 292145001-01, HUAJIE 20-03-23, controller 292145001, HM-10019BL-01, 20200326. Here's what I found out and what I have done. In the Blk,Br,Y, R bundle the Blk is common back to the battery, Br 39V back to - (battery is 41 volts) (turns on lights when touched to common), Y 41 volts back to + (doesn't to anything connected to -), R 41 volts hot from battery (this is what melted my pin on the R wire when I touched it to Blk). This doesn't make any sense to me because the wiring diagram seems to imply the yellow and red are connected back to the - through all the switches in the handle. I will try to read the manual and see if connecting in a certain order might work. The bag sensor is a reed switch which I put a metal bar into to by bypass (this has 3 wires so don't know how it really operates, connects or disconnects power?) . I don't have the tilt sensor but the cable has 4 wires 41 volts to -, 41 volts to +, 41 volts to +, and and and connection to common that has 41 volts to +. If any of this make sense to any of you please enlighten me. There is a controller on Ebay that doesn't have all the extra safety wiring so may try that. I could also get a regular AC motor and run a extension cord down the hill if this doesn't work out but that would entail turning on the generator walking down the hill to turn on the pump then going back up to turn it off. I only have a small wash tub that I collect water in which I pump up to a 60 gallon tank in my attic. I think the tub holds about 20 gallons but not sure. The optimum would be float swithes in the spring tank and the attic tank to automatically run the pump when needed and but shut off the motor when the spring tank is empty. Perhaps some day.
 

Thread Starter

Demonsgirl

Joined Aug 22, 2021
11
These are the instructions on operation. It does state to engage a switch or switches before engaging another switch. Maybe that's the secret. But is it a continuos or temp contact?

STARTING/STOPPING THE MOWER
See Figures 11 - 12.
NOTE:
Mower will not start without the grass catcher or
mulch plug attached, the start key installed, and the battery
in the unit.
Raise the battery cover.
Install battery pack into the battery port.
Insert the start key into the slot beside the battery storage
compartment.
Lower the battery cover.
Raise the handle assembly as described earlier.
NOTE:
The mower will not start if the handle assembly
is not in the operating position.
Press and hold the start button. Pull the bail toward the
handle and release the button to start the mower and
blades.
NOTE:
The motor and blades will also start if the bail is
pulled first and the start button is pressed after.
To stop the mower, release the bail.
 

Thread Starter

Demonsgirl

Joined Aug 22, 2021
11
That would be nice but I have a fall of about 4 feet. This spring is next to the river so getting more fall is out of the question. I have thought about using the river as a pump but would have to contentiously move the pump. Summer low flows around 150 FPS to winter of over 10,000 FPS sometimes over 20,000 once up to 100,000 estimated FPS. That came all the way up and left driftwood under the front porch.
 

Thread Starter

Demonsgirl

Joined Aug 22, 2021
11
I'm losing it the above is nonsense do to the fact when the river gets to around 3500 FPS the spring is covered up by the river. :(
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
1,189
Use a 3 to 4-foot-long "Well-Point" and shove it directly, deep into the Spring.
They are specifically designed to pull Water through Sand.
Sounds like your River could supply some serious Power.
I can't see the Lawn-Mower-Motor being very useful.
A ~4-foot diameter Water-Wheel can easily spin a Car-Alternator at very high speed,
probably being capable of 50 to 75-Amps at 14-Volts, and with continuous output.
You could have free Electricity !!!
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.
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MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
9,541
The majority of rivers and streams that I have been close to will not cooperate at least half of the time. Rushing water can be so very destructive even when the river stays inside it's banks.
 

Thread Starter

Demonsgirl

Joined Aug 22, 2021
11
No sand just bed rock but I did think of trying to put in a pipe but afraid it would get washed out or mess up the spring somehow.
Dang you now I have other things to think about. :confused: I can't do solar due to lots of trees and being on the north side of the mountain getting no sun in winter. Maybe I can make a floating wheel? Hmmmm have to be completely waterproof it usually rains about 50 inches here in a normal winter but getting less.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
9,541
Depending on the drop in the river as it flows downstream, the trick was to tap in upstream with a mill-race and have a conveniently controlled flow of water some distance from the river. That may, or not, beapplicable to your instance and that particular river, since I have no clue what part of the world you are in. On one city on the inside passage part of Alaska it would be simple to have a hundred feet of head pressure with a hundred feet of pipe, while along the Mississippi River near New Orleans you might get three feet of pressure head with a mile or more of pipe.
Some sort of mill-race could allow your alternator to be quite distant from the river, depending on the drop in the land elevation. And it would make it simpler to keep river water separate from spring water.
Of course, I have no idea about the cost and availability of materials in your location.
 

MrSalts

Joined Apr 2, 2020
656
I have a Ryobi motor and controller using a 3 wire brushless 40 volt motor out of a lawn mower. I want to make a battery powered portable water pump. I need to know how this operates. There are various safeties which can be bypassed for my application. There is a four wire bundle (black, brown, yellow, Red) coming out of the controller which I believe should turn the motor on If i can figure out which combo I need. I have messed around with a little and found out they turn on the LED lights by just touching them. From the wiring diagram it seems pretty straight forward Yellow and Red connect to the black. I don't see the brown wire in the diagram labeled in the drawing like the other four. I have melted the pin on the red wire by connecting it to ? which I don't remember. This short could have killed the controller but I don't know that yet. There is also a 4 wire ribbon (all gray wires) labeled tilt sensor for which I can find no information or a part #. This is supposed to turn off the motor if the angle exceeds 45 degrees. Do I need the sensor on there? Can I bypass this somehow? Or if is not connected is it inoperable? Would anybody be able to steer me onto the correct path? Are there controllers that would work for this motor that have no safeties? Thanks in advance for any help here.
View attachment 246403
I have a 40v brushed DC motor looking for a home - from a brand new, never run black & Decker electric mower that was given to me by a neighbor who was trying to build something from the motor and battery and then lost interest. Send me a private message if you are in the U?s and want to simplify your project, or use thus lotor to make a water wheel to charge your batteries for your original project and motor.
 

Thread Starter

Demonsgirl

Joined Aug 22, 2021
11
Back to the controller problem. The lights stopped turning on so I figured I blew the board some how so I took the board out of the case. I was right the red wire that goes up to the switches goes DIRECTLY to the + buss. The Black goes to the - buss. The yellow goes to the PCB at a location labeled KEY. The Brown wire goes to the PCB labeled On\Off. Looking at the wiring diagram it appears the red connects directly to the common at a switch which can't be. Does anyone else see this differently? So I'm thinking you just need the common yellow and brown (which doesn't work but maybe would if I figure out the tilt). The reed switch for the grass catcher when a metal bar is inserted opens the two wires a green and gray to a black common. When the metal is removed they close (seems backwards). I can't figure out the tilt sensor wires but will still work on it.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
9,541
Some switches are lighted and so they need both sides of the power And many mowers short the motor to stop the blade fast so that it is hard to get fingers cut. And sometimes safety circuit switches sre monitored for both positions because it is hard to see the difference between zero and nothing.
 

Thread Starter

Demonsgirl

Joined Aug 22, 2021
11
But how could these switches connect direct from the buss + to the - common? I'm pretty sure these switches don't have lights an there is only one common wire. I got a hold of another guy on Ebay that's selling a harness with all the switches still connected and he says it's easy to bypass everything. I'm trying to get the information from him.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
9,541
But how could these switches connect direct from the buss + to the - common? I'm pretty sure these switches don't have lights an there is only one common wire. I got a hold of another guy on Ebay that's selling a harness with all the switches still connected and he says it's easy to bypass everything. I'm trying to get the information from him.
That wiring picture is certainly not very descriptive, and it is also not clear at all as to what the actual connections are at most of the devices. I was trying to present one explanation of how it might be, not an actual analysis. and dynamic braking of a BLDC is probably a lot more complex than for a simple brush type of motor.
 

Thread Starter

Demonsgirl

Joined Aug 22, 2021
11
I received a reply from the Ebayer with the same system. I still need some clarification but it appears to be just connecting the Yellow and Brown together starts it. These wires are labeled KEY and ON/OFF so might be all that's needed. I tried it on mine but it didn't work(but I may have killed it. He didn't explain the tilt sensor unfortunately. I will report back.
 
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