...But we were going far from the original post. Since I'm born and raised in Iceland I could not, not notice the lack of "my" country in this illustration.

Other than that great post Bertus.

Well, do you consider your country to be part of Europe? Why? Because of political ties, geological palates or desire to be part of something bigger (or other)?

 

It will be all a moot point shortly when the human population reaches saturation point.
I don't think I would wish to be around when it does.
http://www.unep.org/pdf/op_sept_2011/EN/OP-2011-09-EN-ARTICLE5.pdf
Max.

 

Isn't the human saturation point a local problem? What does the person in a rural area where the population is rated a 1 person per mile, vice the urban area where the saturation is a real problem.

Couple that with all the area's were there are no humans? Should those area's be developed and lose a portion of the biosphere? Maybe when the saturation occurs, the governments of the world would just exterminate their local populace to maintain sustainability. We seem to want the governments to solve all sorts of problems.

 

@Brownout
My comment was in reference to an international survey done recently of citizens' perceptions of the quality of life in their countries. The finding was that objective measures of quality of life (e.g., discretionary income, house size, new cars, and such) did not correlate well with the state of happiness and satisfaction. I agree with Sinus23 that your comment was unrelated to the context of my comment. Obviously, the study did not include people in gulags and others who did not have the civil liberties of the general population of each country. Your comment was, as some say, a straw man proposition to change the subject.

I am perplexed by what possible motive you may have had.

John

 

Well, do you consider your country to be part of Europe? Why? Because of political ties, geological palates or desire to be part of something bigger (or other)?

Last time I checked we were considered a part of Europe. What I think does not really matter about that. To me we are somewhat between Europe and America.

 

Perhaps because geographically you straddle Europe and N.A.?
Max.

Probably.

Then I suppose you don't have an answer to the question. My comments are not about "being happy with what you have." They are about how the health of the planet is inextricably tied to the quality of life. Sure, expectations will lower as the quality of life degrades, but that's not how it should be. We should raise our expectations, not lower them.

True. But you know better than to expect something to happen. Roll with the punches and try to get what you want/need out of it. What we want or need and what we get can be totally different things. About the quality of life which can be interpreted in quite a few ways and health of the planet. I'm sure that informed people do a better job than people which live quality lives, at least on average. The problem is that too many people have detached themselves from our basic needs like how and where our water and food sources come from. And don't get me started on our collective garbage.

But yes you're right we should aim to succeed.

 

Personally I see the whole map changing process to be little more than people thinking it would be better to be associated with some other group only to find out after they joined that the new group is just as useless as the last group they departed from.

Planet wise nature does not cater to any life form. Never did and never will. The life forms that can adapt stay around those that can't disappear. Humans will be no different. Those of us who the genetics to adapt to the new conditions will continue to produce offspring and continue the species.

Those who can't adapt simply won't produce offspring that will continue their linage of whining moaning and being nearly useless creatures that only care about how life is supposed to stay the same and favor them and their viewpoints and not those of the ones who can adapt.

 

Humans are just about the only species that adapts the environment to fit their comforts in a really large way. It is why we cover the majority of the planet, to the detriment of everything else.

I tend to go with Heinlein, bad times for the individual are good times for the race.

 

The world population is expanding exponentially it could quite soon that the world required food supply will be unsustainable that is when you will see all hell break loose.
Max.

 

Yes, Malthus had a lot of insight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus). His theories certainly apply on a grand scale.

But, our history has been marked with more acute disturbances, such as the period from 1933 to 1945. I think the current period will be viewed by historians similarly, if civilized society survives.

I raised the point earlier that of all of "Europe," Germany remained more Balkanized than the rest until the latter part of the 19th century. Yet, those various states still considered themselves, "German." What is it in that culture that led to strong group identity, yet such individualistic states?

John

 

One thing that I did find striking was how Germany stayed in so many pieces until the latter part of the 19th century.

German history is pretty interesting, as my Wikipedia meanderings have shown me. Going from one of the few areas of Europe not conquered by the Roman Empire (partly because it was ignored for much of that time), until the consolidation at the end of the 19th century, at which point it rocketed into the world's big boys club of nations. Looked at over that 1000-year period, rather than any of the specific tumultuous times it has gone through, it's really pretty interesting.

 

The world population is expanding exponentially it could quite soon that the world required food supply will be unsustainable that is when you will see all hell break loose.
Max.

I think I've read in more than source that it's more likely clean water will become a problem before food supply does.

 

@Brownout
Obviously, the study did not include people in gulags and others who did not have the civil liberties of the general population of each country.

Maybe it should. Unless the study considers those who are experiencing degraded conditions, it doesn't tell us much about how humans will cope with the kinds of disruptions we have been talking about. Find a study that examines war refugees, famine victims, political prisoners, etc.

 

It will be all a moot point shortly when the human population reaches saturation point.
I don't think I would wish to be around when it does.
http://www.unep.org/pdf/op_sept_2011/EN/OP-2011-09-EN-ARTICLE5.pdf
Max.

Excellent article, Max. But I prefer the author's idea of "environmental saturation point" to population saturation point, because it encompasses all of the factors that contribute to the degradation of earth's processes, climate change, ozone depletion, loss of biodiversity, acidification of the oceans, land and water use, and of course, population growth.

 

this is probably going to go off topic, but

1. Danes are dogs, great danes that is and dogs are easily upset... but easily made happy also
2. Happiness is relative and should not even be discussed. I point to Candide for anyone struggling with the topic "all is for the best in this best of possible worlds" (I think)... it is to me a N. American concept that one is supposed to be permanently happy. I experience happiness when I drink clean water or see first fresh snow on the ground or take in a breath of sea air. All of these may be gone if we are to proceed in our current fashion. Of course those coming after me will not ever know what they lost and define happiness in a new fashion, I don't know what it may be and I am not too keen to find out - a new i-phone every day? People have tied their quality of life not to the health of the planet but to how much stuff they can accumulate over time and thats very sad...

makes me remember the dying for your phone post... Thankfully there are still some people fitting for the environment, but it is a loosing battle.

Sorry for the rant, not sure what prompted it

 

Care for a swim? Watch the slide show.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/photos/do...olluted-bodies-of-water-1409958750-slideshow/
Max.

 

looks almost like a map for spread of new diseases...

That was exactly my first impression. Constraints and borders imposed by the rise of the nation-state is indeed a sort of human disease that has appeared too late in our evolution. We haven't had much chance to adapt.

 

Constraints and borders imposed by the rise of the nation-state is indeed a sort of human disease that has appeared too late in our evolution. We haven't had much chance to adapt.

I believe tribalism has always been part of our DNA, you only have to see the studies on Apes, chimps in particular which share over 95% of our DNA, behave exactly in the same tribal or group way.
Max.

 

this is probably going to go off topic, but

1. Danes are dogs, great danes that is and dogs are easily upset... but easily made happy also

Think we were talking about people from Denmark, though that are probably easily upset too.

People have tied their quality of life not to the health of the planet

They do, they just don't know it yet.

 

Chimps have been documented going to war, a very human behavior.