# When does the search for gender "equality" become gender discriminiation.

#### pmd34

Joined Feb 22, 2014
520
As a scientist I continually come across criticism that there is not a 50:50 split of the genders in science. All education, neurological, physiological, statistical arguments aside, there are still things like this:
"Where did all the women in tech go"
https://www.bbc.com/ideas/videos/where-did-all-the-women-in-tech-go/p070164c

At 0:30 she says "and women were pushed out".. implying that there were other (male) employees doing the pushing....and yet
At 1:30 she tells us "there was a huge labour shortage"... oh so.. er.. you mean there was no one actually pushing?

I spotted a great demonstration of this new emerging "equality" online some time back:
"the university college has increased the number of women at the associate professor level by 36 percent, from 37.7 percent in 2007 to 51.5 percent in 2010. The school’s publication statistics are also impressive. Female researchers at the university college accounted for 45 percent of the publication points in 2009"

Granted the last 6.5% might have only just arrived.. but still if your going to try and make a point, make it a strong unambiguous one huh?!

In many cases the drive for equality is having a very negative impact, I see many scientists getting positions just because they are female regardless of qualifications, (after all, its all about the employment statistics now!) This is incredibly demeaning for female scientists who do have the qualifications and have worked dam hard to get where they are today!

Sure we have a long way to go before we live in a gender equal society, but "positive discrimination" is still discrimination!

#### MrChips

Joined Oct 2, 2009
24,455
It is called tokenism or reverse discrimination.

#### JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
There have been studies. Ever wonder why Sweden doesn't have an abundance of females in STEM? Sweden is the most egalitarian country in the world. People are wired differently. The "scientists" didn't expect to find what they found.

It's not a "new" discovery.

I agree with equality of opportunity. I disagree with equality of outcome.

#### jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,088
There have been studies. Ever wonder why Sweden doesn't have an abundance of females in STEM? Sweden is the most egalitarian country in the world. People are wired differently. The "scientists" didn't expect to find what they found.

It's not a "new" discovery.

I agree with equality of opportunity. I disagree with equality of outcome.
Better be careful, the President of Harvard got fired for suggesting that fact existed:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2005/jan/18/educationsgendergap.genderissues
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/education/22harvard.html

#### pmd34

Joined Feb 22, 2014
520
This was another one:

"When she was 25, Martha Lane-Fox sat in front of a venture capitalist....At the time Lane-Fox and her business partner Brent Hoberman were ploughing 23 hours a day into it....the potential investor looked across his big mahogany desk at Hoberman and said: “So what happens if she gets pregnant?”...The story is astonishing..."

#### djsfantasi

Joined Apr 11, 2010
7,870
This is an apocryphal story. In my professional experience (IT), I have worked with many people. I would say, there has been an even distribution of male/female. And when recalling the ones who stood out, who were extremely creative, who were task oriented, who came up with INCREDIBLE designs... the plurality have come from the female staff. If asked to quantify my observations, while having lunch at a pub, I would say 80% of the outstanding people I have worked with or worked for me have NOT been male.

The guys have been PLUGGERS. The women have been VISIONARIES.

#### atferrari

Joined Jan 6, 2004
4,444
I agree with equality of opportunity. I disagree with equality of outcome.
Definitely my way of thinking.

#### justtrying

Joined Mar 9, 2011
435
What I find interesting is that there is no criticism of lack of 50:50 split in nursing, teaching, or other largely social jobs overwhelmingly done by women... Neither is there a criticism that their isnt a 50:50 split in logging, fishing or other highly demanding physical and dangerous jobs perfomed by men.

The scientists who support notion that men and women are the same are driven by an agenda that only serves to further divide us. Everyone deserves to be where they are because of their work and desire to be there, not because of someone elses agenda.

If you study history, you will see that behind every man is a great woman. I am yet to see how "equality" is defined in modern context. Access to services? Access to education? Equal pay? Those all exist.

#### BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
3,821
I suspect it has more to do with divergent interests than ability or discrimination. Of course, that may be affected by societal expectations.

Edited to add: A long ago girlfriend was taking a course in Calculus. She flunked the first exam with an "F". I started tutoring her, and she achieved "A"s on all of the subsequent exams. In her case at least, there was not lack of ability or interest, her problem was the communication style of the professor, which did not work for her even though she clearly had the ability to learn the material if it was presented in a different way.

Bob

#### justtrying

Joined Mar 9, 2011
435
I suspect it has more to do with divergent interests than ability or discrimination. Of course, that may be affected by societal expectations.

Edited to add: A long ago girlfriend was taking a course in Calculus. She flunked the first exam with an "F". I started tutoring her, and she achieved "A"s on all of the subsequent exams. In her case at least, there was not lack of ability or interest, her problem was the communication style of the professor, which did not work for her even though she clearly had the ability to learn the material if it was presented in a different way.

Bob
Your example is a common issue for many people, men and women, in hard sciences. I have tutored math for 10 years and the approach is highly individual. This is where school fails. Generally only students who are able to self motivate and self study succeed. Teachers that are able to reach the whole class are very rare. Interests form based on our experinces. Someone might have gone into sciences if not for that horrible math teacher in grade 2... No matter boy or girl.

#### BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
3,821
Your example is a common issue for many people, men and women, in hard sciences. I have tutored math for 10 years and the approach is highly individual. This is where school fails. Generally only students who are able to self motivate and self study succeed. Teachers that are able to reach the whole class are very rare. Interests form based on our experinces. Someone might have gone into sciences if not for that horrible math teacher in grade 2... No matter boy or girl.
Yes, I think that is probably the case. I think there is a real gender bias that has somehow crept into the teaching of math.

Bob

#### JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
It is because of the "interests", not discrimination. Women are interested in people and men are interested in things.

Hell, if a woman comes to the STEM fields, more power to her.

The issue is not discrimination, it's about competence in the field. Not all men are suited for the stem fields either.

Like I said, Peterson talked about this in great lengths. No body likes what the data said, but if your willing to fudge the data, you can make it state whatever you wish it to state.

Don't worry, when the social scientists win and tell you the data is what we say it is ... then equality of outcome will prevail. Competence is no longer valid.

#### justtrying

Joined Mar 9, 2011
435
It is because of the "interests", not discrimination. Women are interested in people and men are interested in things.

Hell, if a woman comes to the STEM fields, more power to her.

The issue is not discrimination, it's about competence in the field. Not all men are suited for the stem fields either.

Like I said, Peterson talked about this in great lengths. No body likes what the data said, but if your willing to fudge the data, you can make it state whatever you wish it to state.

Don't worry, when the social scientists win and tell you the data is what we say it is ... then equality of outcome will prevail. Competence is no longer valid.
Ultimate equality? Everyone suited for death...

https://m.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/ussr-women-snipers.html

#### JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
Survival certainly outweighs all other interests.

USSR had snipers and night witches (dropping bombs from WWI aircraft), Night witches earned their name because when they went on a bombing run, they cut the engine so it was silent as they swooshed by ....

Death isn't a competency. It's a fact of life.

#### justtrying

Joined Mar 9, 2011
435
Survival certainly outweighs all other interests.

USSR had snipers and night witches (dropping bombs from WWI aircraft), Night witches earned their name because when they went on a bombing run, they cut the engine so it was silent as they swooshed by ....

Death isn't a competency. It's a fact of life.

One of the favorite movies. Highly recommend if you tolerate subtitles. Only the "old men" is better translated as "seasoned"

Everyone is equal, and multiple countries represented!

#### cmartinez

Joined Jan 17, 2007
7,467
If you study history, you will see that behind every man is a great woman.
yeah ... and it's ussually his mom ...

#### Glenn Holland

Joined Dec 26, 2014
705
On the subject of the disproportionate number of women in science and engineering, here's an anecdotal (and revealing) story from my elementary school days in the 1960s.

There was a tree maintenance company working across the street from the school and the crew was running one of those classic wood chippers that would grind up the branches. About 12 or so boys lined up the fence next to the street to watch the machine running. However, there were no girls anywhere near the fence and they were busy playing jacks and socializing like nothing unusual was happening.

From this observation, it's obvious that girls are not very mechanically (or technically) inclined and that's the prime reason that more women are not in participating in science or engineering. No amount of social engineering is going to change this ingrained characteristic and it's a waste of time and $$to promote hiring more women in fields they are really not interested in. #### bogosort Joined Sep 24, 2011 678 Women are interested in people and men are interested in things. This is an absurd statement. For the record, I'm male, and I'm interested in people who are interested in ideas. The issue is not discrimination, it's about competence in the field. Not all men are suited for the stem fields either. So you believe that humans are born competent in STEM, that those who succeed in technical fields are wired differently than those who don't show aptitude or interest? Does education/opportunity/mentorship play any role? #### bogosort Joined Sep 24, 2011 678 From this observation, it's obvious that girls are not very mechanically (or technically) inclined and that's the prime reason that more women are not in participating in science or engineering. No amount of social engineering is going to change this ingrained characteristic and it's a waste of time and$$\$ to promote hiring more women in fields they are really not interested in.
Ugh.

To any young women reading this thread: You're going to run into people who think like this; it sucks, but unfortunately we still have cavemen living among us. Just remember that they are ignorant and scared of you. Math doesn't discriminate, so devour as much of it as you can. And don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you what you are or are not capable of.

#### justtrying

Joined Mar 9, 2011
435
Ugh.

To any young women reading this thread: You're going to run into people who think like this; it sucks, but unfortunately we still have cavemen living among us. Just remember that they are ignorant and scared of you. Math doesn't discriminate, so devour as much of it as you can. And don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you what you are or are not capable of.
Your attitude is rare and I thank you for it. Unfortunately social engineering starts early... and begins in the family. The societal expectations are there requiring us to submit to certain roles and really there is nothing wrong with it as long as that is what you want. But we do not get to choose do we? But this striving for equality is one sided. We celebrate a woman who took up woodworking, but what would happen to a man who decides to take up quilting? Both require equal amount of skill and creativity