Bought a watch in a 100 yen shop last year- it's still working but 38 minutes off (not water resist).

Too lazy to correct it. In the end I plan to remove the plastic straps and use it for my old Casio watch. Too lazy to do that too.

 

Design all items to last at least 100 years? But then when they start failing at 100 years people will complain that they were designed to fail at 100 years and not 200.

That's quite a crystal ball you're packing!

 

Have a SEGA Master System here from 1988 if that helps, still 100% OK.

 

That's quite a crystal ball you're packing!

I think the question behind it is perfectly legitimate. If the complaint is that manufactures speed the failure of a product by using cheaper components, then what is the answer? How long should something be designed to last? Or should manufactures be expected to use whatever components will maximize the life expectancy of every product, regardless of cost?

 

You can design it with the most expensive parts out there. The problem is without you guaranteeing the product to last, the price will be so high, very few will buy your product.

Ok takao, here's a question ...

Let's say you want to make 100,000 per year for the next 60 years, with a 2 percent increase each year for inflation, and your product is designed to last 20 years. What design time will you require? What are the parts costs? What is the selling price of your product? How many must you sell to satisfy your need to earn that income.

Remember, voyager 1 and 2 are still out there ... almost 40 years since their launch in 1977. Of course, voyager 1 cost 250 million. You won't sell too many at that price.

Hint: Your total income for all those years will be a little over 11.4 million.

 

I never attribute to guile or malice what is commonly the fault of ignorance, incompetence and or greed. I have never seen any products intentionally designed to self destruct, ...

It's not incompetence, rather the complete opposite.

The appliance manufacturers have a very high level of competence in making things that JUST last the statutory warranty period, which in most "consumer" (ie western) countries is one year.

If the product fails in less than a year you generally have legal recourse to force them to replace it free of charge. If it fails in one year and one day, you have to buy a new one.

When this phenomenon started, in the repair shops we saw so many customers bringing dead TV's and VCRs in, saying "Would you believe it? It's just past it's one year warranty". Yes, I believed it, I saw it every week.

And I saw how they deliberately designed it to fail; by cap placement, under-rated parts and poor cooling, and deliberately weak linkages etc.

As the phenomenon got worse over years the appliances now fail in less than a year, 7 to 8 months can be typical. But the consumers are now trained to just accept that loss, and go buy another product. On cheaper items anyway, things like modems or laptop batteries or $65 DVD recorders etc.

On the higher ticket items they still try to engineer the bulk of failures >1 year. And fail at JUST >1 year.

So what should they do?

Design all items to last at least 100 years? ...
...
You are in charge of designing a new consumer product. How long do you design it to last?

See above.

It's the state of the industry. And anyone who believes that consumer appliance design teams don't spend a lot of thought on the "life before failure" of their product are naive.

And don't get me started on the designed failure of CFLs! If ever there was an industry totally built on repeat sales to consumers, it's the light bulb industry.

 

It's not incompetence, rather the complete opposite.

The appliance manufacturers have a very high level of competence in making things that JUST last the statutory warranty period, which in most "consumer" (ie western) countries is one year.

If the product fails in less than a year you generally have legal recourse to force them to replace it free of charge. If it fails in one year and one day, you have to buy a new one.

Well, aside from my 16 year old Sony TV, I have a maytag dishwasher that's more than ten years old and a dryer in the garage that is at least 25 years old. I did have to clean the lint out of the dryer motor once about 15 years back.

I still have two different VHS recorders that are at least 10 years old and have seen a lot of use but still work.

The Akai receiver in my shop was bought in 1974, still works . The Pioneer receiver for my main system is one I bought used about 12 years back... still works.

If appliances are designed to self destruct after a year, how do I keep getting these?

 

It's the state of the industry. And anyone who believes that consumer appliance design teams don't spend a lot of thought on the "life before failure" of their product are naive.

I spent the last 20 years working WITH the people who design consumer electronics from Cel phones to PCs to Ipods and everything in between. It is simply complete BS that they try to design in a one year life span. It is true they will not spend one penny more than it takes to make SURE it lives long enough to get through warranty, but that is a different issue. That reflects the reality that pacific rim contractors will always cheap out a design with the crappiest components to increase their razor thin profit margin. But I guarantee you, there is nobody sitting around trying to tweak the design to shorten the life.

 

I spent the last 20 years working WITH the people who design consumer electronics from Cel phones to PCs to Ipods and everything in between. It is simply complete BS that they try to design in a one year life span. It is true they will not spend one penny more than it takes to make SURE it lives long enough to get through warranty, but that is a different issue. That reflects the reality that pacific rim contractors will always cheap out a design with the crappiest components to increase their razor thin profit margin. But I guarantee you, there is nobody sitting around trying to tweak the design to shorten the life.

I have the same experience. It's all about the profit margin. Exactly what I thought.

 

The appliance manufacturers have a very high level of competence in making things that JUST last the statutory warranty period, which in most "consumer" (ie western) countries is one year.

If the product fails in less than a year you generally have legal recourse to force them to replace it free of charge. If it fails in one year and one day, you have to buy a new one..

The friends with the fridge I was initially talking about found a law that says: The consumer has to right to expect a repair free of charge if the appliance fails within an unreasonable amount of time. I don't remember exactly how old it was, but it was quite new but past warranty period. I think 2 or 3 years. She called their service departement and said, blablabla, law,blabla and a tech went to their home within two days and they didn't pay a penny. AND the tech said he was very surprised they didn't have to pay nothing, it was kind of very unusual and he wanted to know how they did it.

I'm not sure if it's a provincial law or federal.

Look it up , maybe it exists in the US as well?

Ok. just found it, I think it's a provincial. It's called reasonable lifetime warranty.
http://www.opc.gouv.qc.ca/en/consum...er/electromenager/warrantie/legal-warranties/

 

So what should they do?

Quit going over the engineers design and:
replacing tantalum caps with electrolytics,
replacing steel or aluminum with, "pot metal",
replacing bearings with bushings (or worse),
taking out the piece of felt that is supposed to be the oil reservoir,
reducing the uf's of the aluminum capacitors to just barely enough on the day it is born,
using talc as a filler instead of fiberglass,
removing the water-proofing on steel tubing in wet places,
stuff like that.

 

Like the condensate drip pan under the condenser in my home AC that was made of metal and designed to corrode after 10 years. Had to replace the pan with one made from plastic.

 

Quit going over the engineers design and:
replacing tantalum caps with electrolytics,
replacing steel or aluminum with, "pot metal",
replacing bearings with bushings (or worse),
taking out the piece of felt that is supposed to be the oil reservoir,
reducing the uf's of the aluminum capacitors to just barely enough on the day it is born,
using talc as a filler instead of fiberglass,
removing the water-proofing on steel tubing in wet places,
stuff like that.

So let's say Company A did all those things the way you wanted and Company B didn't. Both are making otherwise identical products. In most markets (and remember that the bulk of the discussion has been on this issue in the context high-volume consumer markets), Company B will be able to sell their product at a profitable price Company A simply can't match. So in order to survive, Company B will have to charge not only what it would were it to have Company B's volume, but significantly more than that because it will only have a fraction of the volume -- and the higher price will reduce their volume even more. Unless they are able to find a niche market, they are not going to make it.

 

Captain Obvious to the rescue?

As a contractor that buys multi-thousand dollar products and then installs them and services them, I learn which air conditioners are plagued with refrigerant leaks and refuse to buy the bad ones. In addition, I take all my new machines apart and install better parts, coatings, etc. before I install the product. Some clothes dryer lint from a load of new cotton shop rags makes a pretty good oil reservoir. A few feet of insulation tubing stops water dripping constantly in the air conditioning condensers. That same insulation stops condensed atmospheric water being constantly in contact with the steel filter/dryers.

Some people just complain. Some people install quality.

 

Captain Obvious to the rescue?

As a contractor that buys multi-thousand dollar products and then installs them and services them, I learn which air conditioners are plagued with refrigerant leaks and refuse to buy the bad ones. In addition, I take all my new machines apart and install better parts, coatings, etc. before I install the product. Some clothes dryer lint from a load of new cotton shop rags makes a pretty good oil reservoir. A few feet of insulation tubing stops water dripping constantly in the air conditioning condensers. That same insulation stops condensed atmospheric water being constantly in contact with the steel filter/dryers.

Some people just complain. Some people install quality.

Gee, I guess that multi-thousand dollar products that have to be installed and serviced over a multi-decade lifespan and ultra-high volume consumer products are really the same after all.

 

Quit going over the engineers design and:
replacing tantalum caps with electrolytics,
replacing steel or aluminum with, "pot metal",
replacing bearings with bushings (or worse),
taking out the piece of felt that is supposed to be the oil reservoir,
reducing the uf's of the aluminum capacitors to just barely enough on the day it is born,
using talc as a filler instead of fiberglass,
removing the water-proofing on steel tubing in wet places,
stuff like that.

So let's say Company A did all those things the way you wanted and Company B didn't. Both are making otherwise identical products. In most markets (and remember that the bulk of the discussion has been on this issue in the context high-volume consumer markets), Company B will be able to sell their product at a profitable price Company A simply can't match. So in order to survive, Company B will have to charge not only what it would were it to have Company B's volume, but significantly more than that because it will only have a fraction of the volume -- and the higher price will reduce their volume even more. Unless they are able to find a niche market, they are not going to make it.

I mostly disagree. I think companies can choose whether to sell A: low volume, high quality, high price goods, or B: High volume, low quality, low price goods, and consumers can choose between A & B. A company in "B" market has as much chance of success as a company in "A" market. I submit for evidence: Fluke DMM Vs. every other DMM on the market.

 

Gee, I guess that multi-thousand dollar products that have to be installed and serviced over a multi-decade lifespan and ultra-high volume consumer products are really the same after all.

and I guess you think that air conditioners and furnaces aren't high volume products.

 

and I guess you think that air conditioners and furnaces aren't high volume products.

How many air conditioners were sold last year?

How many cell phones were sold last year?

 

What can I say? You win?

I'm going to stop participating in this thread. Hopefully somebody else will take up your need for an adversary.

 

Do you charge the customer for the enhancements?

More importantly, does the client know you added the enhancement so when they reccomend you, its with the clear knowledge they will get and pay more for your enhancements.