The Job Has Gond Bad

bountyhunter

Joined Sep 7, 2009
2,512
Unpaid overtime is a nogo. Unless you are on salary, you get paid for overtime in the US. Some employers will swap overtime pay for time off later, which is acceptable.
That is simply not true for contractors. Companies employ contract workers specifically because they get no benefits or overtime.

I don't know if the OP in this thread is a true "contractor" but if he is, he is only entitled to what's in the contract he signed.

According to the State of California, if you are indeed an Independent Contractor, the company is exempt from overtime requirements. At this stage, the determination as to whether or not you ARE an Independent Contractor is done by the state.

There is no single rule or test to determine whether a worker is an independent contractor or an employee. However, here are some of the more important aspects of the relationship between worker and company that courts evaluate when deciding whether a worker is entitled to overtime pay:

  1. Whether the services rendered by the worker are an integral part of the company’s business;
  2. Whether the relationship with the worker is permanent or temporary;
  3. Whether the worker supplies his/her own tools or other equipment;
  4. Whether the worker controls the details of the work
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,415
I'm not sure where you are getting this, but unless someone is salaried OT is the law in the USA. With a salary you might work less than 40, or more than 40, it is all the same, but if they pay by the hour it does not stop at 40 hours just because someone says so.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,978
The overtime laws apply to EMPLOYEES. A contractor is NOT an employee. What they get paid for and what they don't get paid for is governed by the contract that both parties agreed to.
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
Employee's are determined by the IRS tests.

Contractors and consultants are typically not employees. Review the rules of the game if you want to know the differences. The IRS tests for determining who is an employee or contractor are at the IRS' website. That is the baseline knowledge for further discussion.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,978
And you also have to look at state and local laws. To make matters even worse, different tests apply for different laws, so you might be deemed an employee for one law (say income tax) and a contractor for a different law (say worker's comp or union representation).
 

Thread Starter

Brownout

Joined Jan 10, 2012
2,390
By the terms of my contract, I get paid by the hour wiht time and a half for any time over 40 hours I work in a one week period (Monday - Sunday) The client is trying to get me to work unpaid overtime to make up for the slipping schedule and the fact that our end date was moved up by about 9 months. The training is on the newest wiz-bang technology and is being given to pretty much all the designers and programmers working on similar projects. This new technology is one of many changes made to the project parameters since I was hired. I might be reasonable for the client to terminate my services and hire someone who has experience on the new products, but that doesn't mean in any way I misrepresented my experience and knowledge when signing on. I'm absolutely sure that if it were that easy, I would be on my way back home instead of attending the training.

In the matrix type management structure I an under, I have lots of bosses and leads. Some are responsible for parts of the management realm and others are responsible for other parts. I was able to talk to the boss that is actually in charge of me getting paid and worked out how I could get the training required and get paid. So, I'm good... for now.

Either way, I appreciate everyone's input. My first contract, and I'm sure I'll get the hang of this stuff as time goes on.
 

bountyhunter

Joined Sep 7, 2009
2,512
I'm not sure where you are getting this, but unless someone is salaried OT is the law in the USA.
That is not true. The quotes above are from the state of California refs.

I guarantee to you that when a company employs a contractor (and is deemed to actually be a contractor as legally defined) they are not obligated to pay OT, they are obligate to simply pay what's in the contract.
 

bountyhunter

Joined Sep 7, 2009
2,512
The overtime laws apply to EMPLOYEES. A contractor is NOT an employee. What they get paid for and what they don't get paid for is governed by the contract that both parties agreed to.
BULLSEYE!

That's why copanies use contractors:
1) flat rate, "piece price" for a delivered item or good.
2) No OT, no benefits, no excuses: when the item is delivered as specified in the contract, he gets his money. Unless otherwise stated in the contract.
3) Once the contract expires, no further obligation on either side.
 

LDC3

Joined Apr 27, 2013
924
By the terms of my contract, I get paid by the hour wiht time and a half for any time over 40 hours I work in a one week period (Monday - Sunday) The client is trying to get me to work unpaid overtime to make up for the slipping schedule and the fact that our end date was moved up by about 9 months. The training is on the newest wiz-bang technology and is being given to pretty much all the designers and programmers working on similar projects. This new technology is one of many changes made to the project parameters since I was hired. I might be reasonable for the client to terminate my services and hire someone who has experience on the new products, but that doesn't mean in any way I misrepresented my experience and knowledge when signing on. I'm absolutely sure that if it were that easy, I would be on my way back home instead of attending the training.

In the matrix type management structure I an under, I have lots of bosses and leads. Some are responsible for parts of the management realm and others are responsible for other parts. I was able to talk to the boss that is actually in charge of me getting paid and worked out how I could get the training required and get paid. So, I'm good... for now.

Either way, I appreciate everyone's input. My first contract, and I'm sure I'll get the hang of this stuff as time goes on.
Since the completion date was moved up (probably by the client), he should not expect you to work overtime without pay to get it completed on time.
 

bountyhunter

Joined Sep 7, 2009
2,512
By the terms of my contract, I get paid by the hour wiht time and a half for any time over 40 hours I work in a one week period (Monday - Sunday) The client is trying to get me to work unpaid overtime to make up for the slipping schedule and the fact that our end date was moved up by about 9 months. The training is on the newest wiz-bang technology and is being given to pretty much all the designers and programmers working on similar projects. This new technology is one of many changes made to the project parameters since I was hired. I might be reasonable for the client to terminate my services and hire someone who has experience on the new products, but that doesn't mean in any way I misrepresented my experience and knowledge when signing on. I'm absolutely sure that if it were that easy, I would be on my way back home instead of attending the training.

In the matrix type management structure I an under, I have lots of bosses and leads. Some are responsible for parts of the management realm and others are responsible for other parts. I was able to talk to the boss that is actually in charge of me getting paid and worked out how I could get the training required and get paid. So, I'm good... for now.

Either way, I appreciate everyone's input. My first contract, and I'm sure I'll get the hang of this stuff as time goes on.
Good luck, it sounds like a real mess where nobody knows who's in charge.

FYI: I was an engineer for about 30 years and I can say without fear of contradiction:

You are not being picked on, what you have listed is normal for engineering. Confused goals, constantly changing specs, many people with conflicting ideas of what's going on..... and everything always in panic mode.

It is normal for managers to ask for free OT when a deadline looms..... how you answer depends less on the law and more on if you want to stay with the company.

One of the problems in engineering is that the vast majority of the managers (I ever encountered) are really terrible at management skills. No communication, defensive, single minded, take alternate ideas personally.... A lot of the personality traits that make engineers good at technical skills make them miserable human beings to work for.

This is not the profession for any one who is thin skinned.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,978
By the terms of my contract, I get paid by the hour wiht time and a half for any time over 40 hours I work in a one week period (Monday - Sunday) The client is trying to get me to work unpaid overtime to make up for the slipping schedule and the fact that our end date was moved up by about 9 months.
This, based on this, it sounds like you have a leg to stand on -- but you would have to sue in civil court. You could not take it to your state's labor department as they almost certainly have no jurisdiction over contractors. Now, if you could show that you are, by law, an employee, then that is different.

If the client wants to change the contract terms, that's fine. But they have to get you to agree to the contract amendment which, under some situations, you might well do. If they say that we have to have this amendment otherwise we will terminate the contract, then you might agree. It's a form of extortion, but it's a perfectly legal one. And, of course, there might be times when you will be the one demanding a contract alteration otherwise you will terminate the contract and move on. The whole contracting world has pluses and minuses for both sides.

I was able to talk to the boss that is actually in charge of me getting paid and worked out how I could get the training required and get paid. So, I'm good... for now.
Good to hear that. Hopefully it stays that way.

Either way, I appreciate everyone's input. My first contract, and I'm sure I'll get the hang of this stuff as time goes on.
To at least a better level than you have it now -- you'll probably never get it really good. But live and learn and apply the lessons learned to future outings.
 

#12

Joined Nov 30, 2010
18,224
A lot of the personality traits that make engineers good at technical skills make them miserable human beings to work for.

This is not the profession for any one who is thin skinned.
Aha. So that's why I find working this site so challenging.:D
 

tracecom

Joined Apr 16, 2010
3,944
A lot of the personality traits that make engineers good at technical skills make them miserable human beings to work for.
One GM who was my boss decided that Marketing (me) and Design Engineering should be co-located, so he moved me into a "bull pen" with the engineers. Total misery...for me and them.
 

Metalmann

Joined Dec 8, 2012
703
BULLSEYE!

That's why copanies use contractors:
1) flat rate, "piece price" for a delivered item or good.
2) No OT, no benefits, no excuses: when the item is delivered as specified in the contract, he gets his money. Unless otherwise stated in the contract.
3) Once the contract expires, no further obligation on either side.



That's the way I always worked it.
 

THE_RB

Joined Feb 11, 2008
5,438
By changing the deadline they changed the contract.

So now you ask for more money.

That's one of my pet hates; someone that makes an agreement with me, then once it is underway they change the deal to something that is better for them and worse for me. I tell them to stick to the original deal or stick it period. ;)

You will come across a lot of people like this in business. The have that exact M.O. they make a deal, then once it looks secure and underway they change the deal to give themselves an advantage and screw the other person. It's common with builders that rip your house wall down, then decide "hmmm, it's going to cost more than we thought" etc. Just because they are crooked a-holes and this M.O. has worked for them in the past doesn't mean you have to play the victim.

Stick to your contract and the original deal. And in future make sure the contract specifies that if they change the deal there will be a penalty they have to pay you. And specify that you do not ever work any extra hours for free, nor do any "training" events for free.
 
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WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,978
I've definitely been fortunate in this regard. I have had a number of agreements, both formal contracts and verbal agreements, that have had to be changed. I have certainly run into cases where the proposed changes were very lopsided in favor of the other side. But each time all I have had to do was give it some thought and come up with a specific counter example where they would find a similar change unacceptable because it was too lopsided in my direction and then point out that I am willing to work with them to find a contract mod that we can both agree is equitable in that we both expect to benefit or suffer about equally. That has worked every time, so far.
 

bountyhunter

Joined Sep 7, 2009
2,512
One GM who was my boss decided that Marketing (me) and Design Engineering should be co-located, so he moved me into a "bull pen" with the engineers. Total misery...for me and them.
At National Semi, the Marketing group was "autonomous" which is to say an independent organization that would "bless" you with their presence on occasion.... never show up for meetings, never do their jobs, they answered only to their own managers and not the product lines we worked within.

What's worse: they were physically located withing the Gleaming Glass Tower which was the headquarters building where the CEO and all the top dogs resided, located across the street and down a ways...... and that made them even more arrogant.

So.... the new CEO immediately saw the problem and decreed that the marketing group would be broken up and "disbursed" through the product lines where the marketing guys would answer to the PLDs (product line directors) just like everybody else.

BUT THE ULTIMATE INSULT:

They would no longer have a home in the Glass Tower, they had to move over to the regular buildings where their product lines were located.... and come uncomfortably close the the riff-raff and great unwashed masses they liked so much to avoid (US).

I still remember when Suniel (the VP of marketing) came over to "inspect" the new office furnishings his group was moving into.... with his face all screwed up like he had just kissed a lemon. He immediately screamed that this was unacceptable and would have to be fixed.

His regular VP office (about 20 times the size of our offices) was not good enough....

I swear I am not making this up: they had to expand his office and knock out a section of the wall and install a massive glass wall.... and a door so he could enter and leave directly.

But at the end of all the squirming, he could not prevent the inevitable: marketing ended up having to do some work (on occasion) and even attended meetings like the rest of us peons.
 

bountyhunter

Joined Sep 7, 2009
2,512
I've definitely been fortunate in this regard. I have had a number of agreements, both formal contracts and verbal agreements, that have had to be changed. I have certainly run into cases where the proposed changes were very lopsided in favor of the other side. But each time all I have had to do was give it some thought and come up with a specific counter example where they would find a similar change unacceptable because it was too lopsided in my direction and then point out that I am willing to work with them to find a contract mod that we can both agree is equitable in that we both expect to benefit or suffer about equally. That has worked every time, so far.
My buddy worked at a semi custom design house, and one of the ploys they used to screw contractors was:

they would negotiate the contract for what they really wanted, and tell them that there were three or four future "follow on" projects that they would be giving to them if they liked their performance o this one. The contractors would always give a lower price for more work.... so they were basically baiting them to try to get a lower cost on the one they were actually doing.

Then when it was done, there would be a fake reason why the project was cancelled.

slime bags
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
so they were basically baiting them to try to get a lower cost on the one they were actually doing.
As long as people fall for it, they will continue to use that tactic. Sometimes people won't turn down work, not matter what their losses.
 
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