I find that too many new posters with no knowledge want to be told how to fix switch mode power supplies. Even for people that know what they are doing it is not always an easy task. Even when you tell them the potential dangers they still seem to want to continue.

If they're asking about off-line supplies, I file them away under "Shouldn't be playing with electricity without adult supervision." If low-voltage supplies, it's "Dude has NO IDEA what he's getting himself into."

 

I think one could deduce the impetus of an OP and could be understood by members like a Doctor would or should do. If you have a standard way to approach an individuals abilities just ask by saying out of the box, what is your background in the electronics, student, hobby, big noob, etc and many of you do.

What tools do you have, any meters? or have you assembled any kits, getting to know the OP rather than jumping to conclusions. But, sometimes it's more than one person trying to help and can become confusing for the OP. But, that's inevitable when you have several people, who have different skill sets and approaches to a problem.

All I know in the end is, the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know on this site. I didn't know it would be very useful to know Calculus, I barley understand Algebra.

But, hand me a diagram and I can build it. If they can't read a diagram, then they need to purchase a book or two, blink an LED and then come back to the table to eat.

kv

 

I'm thinking about one chronic we have right now...wants to invent a better way, stuff that has never been done before, and doesn't understand capacitors or inductors. That is frustrating. I don't mind if you buy modules and plug them together. Trying to design new and different modules when he can't understand the modules that have already been done just frustrates both of us. I leave that one alone.

All in all, this is a great site because somebody almost always establishes communication. We, as a group, can decipher wants, needs, intents, and capability. Everybody doesn't get what they want, but if they don't, it's because they don't have the tools or they are asking for something that can't be done. Those aren't failures. They are just a bell curve of results.

 

Another 2 cents.
I think a lot of people view electronics as some little gadgets dumped into a nice box and have no concept that they have to be designed to work.

 

We are seen as chefs by the un-knowing know-it-alls.
The components are our ingredients and if we would just share our secret recipes the world's energy problem could be solved.

We're just greedy or something

 

My take on this is much simpler... we're living in the age of instant gratification. The same kids that grew up with an addiction to video games and immediate rewards are now asking other people to help them learn at the same speed! ... the virtue of patience is now being taught at a much older age... instead of it being distilled from infancy.

 

My gripe is with those who seem to think all of modern technology already exists on some shelf somewhere and after reading a few links and watching a YouTube video they can invert a better thing... If only you give them the last link or two, and perhaps also "the codes" for the software to run it.

 

My take on this is much simpler... we're living in the age of instant gratification. The same kids that grew up with an addiction to video games and immediate rewards are now asking other people to help them learn at the same speed!

At least up in these parts, we're also living in the age of Participation Trophies and self-esteemism uber alles. Poor Johnnie can't read, write or do Algebra? Oh, dear, we need to make the curriculum easier!

... the virtue of patience is now being taught at a much older age... instead of it being distilled from infancy.

Yeah. I believe it's a required course at the School of Hard Knocks...

 

To extend the pool analogy, I went to Georgia Tech, where survival swimming was a graduation requirement. One of the big tests was that we had to swim up and back an Olympic pool - underwater and with a single breath.

One breath before starting

Of course, in each and every class leading up the the tests? The coaches provided with the "basic books" we needed to study. Each "book" or speech taught a skill we'd have to master.

At the end, I easily passed. But many classmates couldn't make it. They were the ones who didn't pay attention.

Learning about electronics is like that class. Those guys who jumped in the deep end without preparing, floundered rather quickly.

 

When I was about 10 years old I had an interest in electricity. Possibly because my father was an electrical engineer as well as a ham radio operator so I was surrounded by technology. I also had some strange ideas. Car batteries, for the most part were still 6 volts and some 12 volts and I had a thing about batteries. My mother had issues with my clothes disintegrating on washing. Darn that sulfuric acid. I figured out that a car generator with power applied ran like a motor. I could place a car battery across my generator and it spun like a motor but backwards. What a discovery. You know where this is going right? I use two generators, one as a motor, twist my belt in a figure 8 and my generator #1 is a motor driving generator #2 which is charging my battery.

This was an incredible discovery which my father actually watched me pursue. I had problems understanding why my great idea didn't work until my first lesson in loss and the realization that you can't get something for nothing. My father would just hand me books to read and if I had questions after I read the book he was there but first read the book. The 50s did not offer up any Internet and there was no Google.

My reference to the deep end of the pool is merely an analogy. I see post by new members who can't comprehend basic Ohm's law or Kirchoff for that matter but want to build advanced circuits. Possibly one of these people could assist me with my matter transfer device, my objective being to beam an ex wife into the center of a brick wall. I wish to thank all of you for your input and comments leading me to believe I am not alone in some of my thinking.

Ron

 

To extend the pool analogy, I went to Georgia Tech, where survival swimming was a graduation requirement. One of the big tests was that we had to swim up and back an Olympic pool - underwater and with a single breath.

Did something similar, Aviation Fundamentals Class P school. They called it drown proofing. Did it in my Navy Schools and Marine Corps Boot Camp. As I recall you were dressed in utilities and had a 10 pound dummy rifle. They tossed us in a pool and we had to thread water for either 45 min or an hour, I forget. It was a challenge at the time. However it did instill self confidence.

Ron

 

Maybe this is just a me thing. Most, not all, swimming pools have a deep end and a shallow end of the pool. Typically the shallow end is about 3 feet (1 meter) deep and the deep end 10 feet (just over 3 meters). Now generally when one is a non-swimmer and learning to swim it is not advisable to throw oneself into ten feet of water. Doing so generally has some bad consequences. You learn to swim in the shallow end of the pool. You start slowly.

Learning electronics is similar (to my way of thinking) to learning to swim. One should start with the basics, things like basic DC theory and all those rules and formulas. Then move along to AC theory and along the road. It is for example unwise to jump into advance calculus without learning the basic fundamentals of mathematics.

Here is what I fail miserably to understand. Why do we see thread after thread where the people posting have yet to get a handle on the basics want to create or invent advanced projects? Create and invent being their more popular terms. Many times it is not just no understanding of the basics but no desire to even learn the basics, just have someone make them a circuit to do whatever they want to do. Maybe it's me in old age but it seems many people just want stuff handed to them like they are owed something. Only a few seem to want to start with learning the basics and working for what they want.

My view on all of this is quite simple. If someone is stupid enough to jump right into the deep end of the pool they deserve to drown. This actually could help clean up the gene pool. Anyone else seem to notice this or would it be just a me thing?

Ron

Were but it that simple.

It's not surprising that people that know nothing about electronics want to jump in and do stuff that is way beyond their capabilities -- it's just a reflection of that fact that for people new to many endeavors they lack the awareness of how much foundational material they really need to master before they are ready to tackle the project they have in mind. It's the same with lots of things -- someone want to learn to do all the tricks on a skateboard but have never touched a skateboard, so they don't comprehend how long it will take them to learn the fundamentals of riding a skateboard before they are in a position to learn the simplest, most boring trick. The same with playing a piano, or shooting a bow and arrow, or what have you. If anything, electronics lends itself to misleading folks because they want to do something that is superficially similar to something they see in a $10 toy, so how hard could it possibly be? They don't see the millions of dollars spent making that $10 toy possible.

Arguably the best way to learn many things is to always operate at a level of difficulty that is just beyond your grasp. Following the swimming analogy, don't try to learn to swim in either 3 ft or 10 ft of water, but instead learn to swim in water that is just over your head so that, if you have to, you can push off the bottom enough to get your head far enough out of the water to take a breath, but doing so is a lot of work and so you are forced to really concentrate on not needing to do so. When I started training for my Instrument pilot's rating, my instructor was of the school of thought (which includes roughly half of the instrument instructors) that the best way to learn how to shoot instrument approaches is to go to an airport and shoot instrument approaches (as opposed to going out away from anywhere and work on the pieces parts of instrument flying one by one). As a result, I spend three lessons (an hour each) operating WAY behind the airplane struggling to keep the shiny side of the airplane up and ended each lesson drenched in sweat and physically and mentally exhausted; but at the end of that third lesson I was able to make a passable instrument approach. Of course, at that point ALL I was doing was flying the airplane -- the instructor was telling me exactly what to do and was handling all of the radio work. Over the next couple dozen lessons just as I became capable of doing two passable approaches in a row he transferred one more item from him to me and, each time, I lost the ability to stay ahead of the airplane for a lesson or two. But by the time I went for my check ride I had a level of confidence in my command of the aircraft like I had never known before. I think learning electronics can (and should?) be similar. Force yourself to operate just beyond your comfort zone -- each task should require you to extend your knowledge at least a little bit in order to accomplish the immediate goal.

 

each task should require you to extend your knowledge at least a little bit in order to accomplish the immediate goal.

Anything that doesn't push like that is what I call, "just work" or, "just procedure".
Only when it pushes me am I in the water, and that's when I enjoy the work.
Anything less is just work.

ps, that's the main reason I suck at being an employee. Doing the same thing, day after day, is like a prison sentence to me.
Must have challenges!

 

"One should not pursue goals that are easily achieved. One must develop an instinct for what one can just barely achieve through one's greatest efforts."
- Albert Einstein

 

Anything that doesn't push like that is what I call, "just work" or, "just procedure".
Only when it pushes me am I in the water, and that's when I enjoy the work.
Anything less is just work.

Or, as I like to say, "Been there, designed that already." Sheer drudgery.

 

"One should not pursue goals that are easily achieved. One must develop an instinct for what one can just barely achieve through one's greatest efforts."
- Albert Einstein

Yes, that's very true; but the frustration expressed by the OP and others in this thread is not about dealing with people whose reach goes a bit beyond their grasp, but rather about dealing with people who are utterly, completely unprepared for the task they have undertaken-- and often not even aware of the extent of their unpreparedness.

 

,,,and often stubbornly argue that any opposing point does not make sense, and hence must be wrong'

 

There's a machine of which I've already sold four versions of. Every time I'm asked to build another one, I put extra features here and there for reliability, speed, and ease of use without the customer requesting it. I do it mainly for the challenge and the fun of personal improvement.

 

,,,and often stubbornly argue that any opposing point does not make sense, and hence must be wrong'

When I interview scientists and engineers, my biggest goal is to figure out their level of self-awareness. That is, do they know how much they don't know vs. do they think they know everything (or in some cases, think they know nothing and are completely paralyzed about entering the workforce).

If they have a good grasp of what they know and don't know, then I start asking HOW they would go about (learning/teaching themselves/researching) what is missing from their toolkit of "know-how". Those that can identify the gap in know-how they they are missing for a chemical/mechanical or DCS/mechanical or other multi-disciplinary problem, they get the offers.