"No child left behind"

That's what I was trying to think of when I said, "lowest common denominator".

 

Lots of mornings, I stop for a schoolbus picking up a kid in a wheelchair. This kid is the only one on the bus, and it's a full size bus. Now, I don't begrudge the kid a public education, but there has to be a more cost effective way than having an entire dedicated school bus and driver to pick up and deliver one student.

 

No. I meant that as a result of that act, we now have classrooms with a 2:1 ratio of students to adults (teachers and paras). Other costs have directly increased as well. I am not saying that the entire increase of education costs are attributable to passage of this law (healthcare costs and public pensions are two other contributing factors that come to mind). I am saying and have direct experience that the "No child left behind" act has cost us dearly. That experience includes elementary schools with several classrooms with a 2:1 student to adult ratio.

Hah? Where in America is the ratio such? My daughter was in a classroom with 20-something students and one teacher. Just like I was before I graduated in 2004. I really would like to know what/where you're talking about. The whole reason I put her in private school was because the student to teacher ratio was closer to 2:1. If were so in public school, I wouldn't have transferred her.

 

Hah? Where in America is the ratio such? My daughter was in a classroom with 20-something students and one teacher. Just like I was before I graduated in 2004. I really would like to know what/where you're talking about. The whole reason I put her in private school was because the student to teacher ratio was closer to 2:1. If were so in public school, I wouldn't have transferred her.

I think the key is that he said "two or three classrooms". So not every classrooms, but only a handful.

The entire time I went to school I don't think there were many classes that had fewer than 30 students. I know it never happened in my elementary school days because I remember one year (2nd grade?) one of the other classes has 29 students and so they moved two students from two of the other classes into there to balance out the class sizes. I usually had 32 or 33. I don't think I ever had more than 34 until a couple classes in high school that had upwards of 40. By the same token, a class couldn't fly in high school unless it had at least 25 students unless it was an AP class, in which case it still had to have 20 (and most had 30+).

But when I was in kindergarten (before we moved), the powers that be decided that I had some kind of learning disability and so two or three times a week my mom had to take me to a special education class at the high school where I was in a class of about five students and it seemed to me we did nothing put play games for the couple hours we were there. I think that was an entire waste of time and money for everyone involved.

 

I'd be interested in similar figures showing funding vs CPI from 2001. The signing of the "No child left behind" act. IMHO, this law has made the cost of providing public education increase dramatically. I have close experience. When you went to school, can you imagine two or three classrooms where the student to teacher ration is under 2? My classroom ratio was 31.

No political response intended.
O

I'm trying to track down the data -- and of course it's going to vary from state to state (and even district to district).

I did run across a study that seemed to go into some depth of looking into the history of education funding, policy, and effects. Not surprisingly, it's hard to separate things out and the contextual information for some of the charts isn't there (or is buried in the text somewhere). But one graph shows inflation-adjusted per-pupil revenues from local, state, and federal sources from 1920 through 2005. I can't determine what the basis year is -- I think it is either 2005 or 2008, though. From 1920 until near the end of the 1940's, per pupil funding was pretty flat at about $1500/pupil and the overwhelming fraction coming from local sources. It started increasing in about 1950 with an increase in the increase happening in about 1960 and again in about 1965. Those appear to correspond with the National Defense Education Act (NDEA) passed in 1958 and the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) passed in 1965 along with Head Start. By 1975 the per pupil revenue was over $6000 (so a factor of four after adjusting for inflation) and by 2005 it was right up at $12000 (so a factor of about eight since the 1920's and 1930's). Additionally, as noted previous in the thread by a few people, the fraction of funding from local sources has continued to drop and is now down somewhat below 50%.

The rates of increase were the sharpest in the Reagan and Clinton years, while they actually decreased slightly in the Carter years, and increased only moderately in the Bush-41 years and a bit more, but still moderate in comparison, during the first Bush-43 term (the data ends at the start of the second term). So at least there doesn't seem to be a big increase related to No Child Left Behind (NCLB), which was passed in 2002, during that time frame. This may or may not be too surprising since NCLB was really just a reauthorization of ESEA with a slight change in emphasis accompanied by much fanfare and promise making.

What the rest of the report does is look at a number of studies -- many government funded -- that have aimed to measure the benefits of roughly two trillion dollars that these acts have cost and have pretty uniformly found, with occasional and usually transient exceptions, that they have had essentially no effect on anything.

 

The only time I've seen small class ratios were in very small school systems.

I recall one time, in a town in Colorado, there were two in the senior class and two in the junior class.

In the largest town in the county, the senior class was 24. In the smaller school system, a town of 100, the senior class was two or three. This was in western Oklahoma ... the last county in the panhandle.

Those numbers will skew the national average, if they were included.

 

The only time I've seen small class ratios were in very small school systems.

I recall one time, in a town in Colorado, there were two in the senior class and two in the junior class.

In the largest town in the county, the senior class was 24. In the smaller school system, a town of 100, the senior class was two or three. This was in western Oklahoma ... the last county in the panhandle.

Those numbers will skew the national average, if they were included.

Not by much, though, depending on how the data are combined. But, as is usually the case, a better metric than the average is the median, particularly if it is accompanied by the quartile numbers as well.

 

These 2:1 ratios are for developmentally disabled students, that now require special services, mandated 1:1 with a paraprofessional, etc... There seems to me (meaning I do not have any hard data; just anecdotal) that these type of services did not exist at this level when I was growing up. And perhaps I am mistaken in attributing that to NCLB, WBahn.
Strantor - assuming your daughter does not fall into this classification, she would not be able to avail herself of this "benefit" and thus, fall into what #12 has described as education for the "lowest common denominator" in a classroom of 20-22 students.
I don't want my opinion to be misconstrued. It is important that education be available for these students as well. My point is that when people start to look at the size of education budgets, they need to understand the components of said budget. I personally do not know of any teachers in the 6 figure range...

 

Like anything else a teacher has to become a professor on the speaking circuit

to make large fee's for being invited to speak on there subject. Professors also

write books on there subjects and are invited to speak on book tours. Book tours

are annual events and grow larger each year with big turn outs. C-span has an event

in a different city just about every week on there book tour.

 

The District of Columbia is spending over 28k per student. At 20 students per class, that's 560k.

from http://www.wtop.com/41/3136922/DC-has-lowest-graduation-rate-in-the-US
The U.S. Department of Education reports new 2010-2011 school year data show the District's four-year high school graduation rate is 59 percent, lower than any state.

Loosewire, you know at the collegiate level, it's a publish or perish world for some Professors. That gives them name recognition as an expert in their respective field. That gives them credibility to get on the "fee" circuit.

 

Many years ago, perhaps 15, I did a little exercise where I basically looked at what could be done with the money that is spend on public schools. I created a little scenario in which I wanted to establish a one-class school and see what it might cost. I don't think I want to put in the effort to really update the numbers, but let's take a rough swing at it:

Let's go for 20 students with one teacher with six academic subjects being taught.

The classroom size guidelines call for a 900sf classroom, so let's be progressive and use 2000sf so that student will have plenty of room to work on projects or do plays or whatever. Office space goes for anywhere from $5/sf/yr to $15/sf/yr around hear. So let's go for middle of the road and get a place for $10/sf/yr. So our classroom will cost us $20,000/yr. That includes all physical facilities maintenance plus profit for the landlord.

I looked around for typical utilities costs and a number that seemed to be in the middle of the range was $2.50/sf/yr for all utilities (electric, heat, cooling, water, sewer), which makes our $5000/yr.

We're going to pay our teacher fairly well at $80,000 and add in benefit package that pays for family health insurance using an HSA plan plus dental and vision at $800/mo and fully fund the HSA at ~$6000/yr. We are going to contribute 20% to a 401(k) retirement So the salary and benifits, after including the payroll taxes we will have to pay, come to a bit under $120,000/yr, so let's go with that.

We will outsource our HR, which for a full-service provider that not only does all the normal HR-related things but takes on legal responsibility for them as well, typically costs between 4% and 8% of payroll. The "payroll" is generally gross pay, so we'll go for really top shelf and pay 10%, or $8000/yr.

Textbooks for K-12 seem to cost about an average of $70. So for 6 academic subjects that would be $420 and for 20 students that would be $8400. Now, because we believe that students should not be deprived of these valuable resources once they are done with them, we will let them keep them and buy new ones next year.

Of course, we need technology in the classroom, so while you can get ten pretty serious desktop computer for the classroom at about $500 each, we are going to buy each student an Apple Mac Book Pro, which the Apple Store is selling for $1200. And since technology gets outdated so fast, we will let them keep the computer and we will buy them a new one next year. So for 20 students that's $24000/yr

While our school room will probably have limited cooking facilities, they will be for student-oriented projects. So we will have box-lunches delivered each day for $10/sudent or $200/day. If we have 200 school days per year (well over the typical 180 days but equal to what is common in Australia and other places) that would be $40,000/yr.

Since physical education is important and since we won't have the facilities to do much, we will locate the school within walking distance of a YMCA with whom we will work with to craft a suitable program for our students and we will buy each student a youth membership, which is currently $26/month. We will pay this throughout the summer as well so that students stay physically active then, as well. So that's $6240/yr.

ITEM|$/yr
ROOM|20,000
UTILITIES|5,000
TEACHER|120,000
HR|8,000
BOOKS|8,400
COMPUTER|24,000
LUNCH|40,000
YMCA|6,240

The above totals to just over $231k/yr. We'll only ask the taxpayers to fund our little school at $12,000/pupil that, which is actually a bit below the most current national average for stated expenses, though it doesn't take into account many hidden costs, such as debt service and employee benefits, that run the actual average up to around %16,000/pupil. So at $12k/pupil, we will have revenues of $240k/yr, leaving us $9000/year, or $1000/month during the school year, to put in a budget for the teacher to spend on the classroom supplies that we incessantly hear about them having to spend their own meager wages on.

Now, are there some things that aren't taking into account? Sure, but I think they are pretty small potatoes (though I would love to hear of any major ones I've left out). Classroom equipment like desks, tables, chairs, whiteboard, projectors, all have useful lives that make their per year cost pretty minimal. Given how generous we have been with so many of the categories, we can easily trim them back enough to cover those expenses.

Also, keep in mind that our school is scalable. We can easily rent ten rooms and service 200 students treating each room as a separate school, but having students actually attend different classes in different room over the course of the day. We can also trim back the budget categories pretty easily to free up $12,000/yr that would let us hire an additional person for each ten classrooms to provide whatever additional functions are needed. Remember that all of the HR and admin stuff is taken care off and outsourced in a way that scales.

Now, does any public school come close to delivering the type of things that this plan does? So when we are told how the schools need more money, should we be demanding a firm accounting of where they money they presently get is actually going?

I've tried to get that information on several occasions and I just get stonewalled, primarily because I think that these people, just like in the health care industry, simply have no idea what the costs are in their own industry!

 

How about transportation for your remote students? Bus driver, bus, insurance, fuel. And that brings up adding in the cost of insurance for your classroom.

And let's say you have at least one developmentally disabled student. That would likely add another 60,000 to your costs.

In your example, administrative functions likely cannot be outsourced or at a minimum would be more expensive than tou estimate. School principals are much more than HR; they are Customer Support, Operations and Account Managers rolled into one and require full-time on site presence. Lets say another $250,000/12 (estimated cost for principal, secretary, nurse prorated over 12 classrooms).

In Massachusetts, there is mandated testing which results in math and verbal specialists also. Lets say another prorated cost of $30,000.

Are you going to feed your students in line with the NSLP? Cafeteria and service personnel costs seem low in your estimate.

So comparing with a one classroom environment may be misleading, as there are school-wide costs to be shared per student as well. I disagree that scaling is linear and that it would result in potential budget trimming in some areas. Additionally, some costs would likely be incurred even in a one classroom environment, such as accommodating developmentally disabled students.

Answering from my iPhone

 

School principals are much more than HR; they are Customer Support, Operations and Account Managers rolled into one and require full-time on site presence.

So if I went to my local school, I can ask the Principal, via the Freedom of Information Act, to get a printout of their budget items and accounts for last school year. As the Account Manager, they should be able to answer any and all questions concerning the financing of that school. I suspect I would be directed to the Superintendent's Office for that information. And even there, I suspect there would be a CFO or similar critter, handling the Accounts.

 

How about transportation for your remote students? Bus driver, bus, insurance, fuel. And that brings up adding in the cost of insurance for your classroom.

And let's say you have at least one developmentally disabled student. That would likely add another 60,000 to your costs.

In your example, administrative functions likely cannot be outsourced or at a minimum would be more expensive than tou estimate. School principals are much more than HR; they are Customer Support, Operations and Account Managers rolled into one and require full-time on site presence. Lets say another $250,000/12 (estimated cost for principal, secretary, nurse prorated over 12 classrooms).

In Massachusetts, there is mandated testing which results in math and verbal specialists also. Lets say another prorated cost of $30,000.

Are you going to feed your students in line with the NSLP? Cafeteria and service personnel costs seem low in your estimate.

So comparing with a one classroom environment may be misleading, as there are school-wide costs to be shared per student as well. I disagree that scaling is linear and that it would result in potential budget trimming in some areas. Additionally, some costs would likely be incurred even in a one classroom environment, such as accommodating developmentally disabled students.

Answering from my iPhone

All points that I can try to allow for.

Where are your $60,000 per classroom for disabled kids and $30,000 per classroom for testing coming from?

If the cost for one disabled student is going to be $60,000 above and beyond the $12,000 average, then at some point there needs to be (or should have been) a serious and dispassionate discussion about what the limits are on reasonable accommodation.

For something that is state-specific, then we'd have to include more cost above our $12,000/yr tuition, just as the costs in that state now are almost certainly higher. In 2010 (the latest data I can find) Massachusetts spend nearly $4000/pupil more than the national average. $30,000/classroom would be $1500/pupil. (And, of course, in general we'd have to allow for cost-of-living differences from place to place, too) I don't think I buy that the schools are spending $1500/student each year for math and verbal specialists, but maybe I'm wrong. If I am, I think something is definitely amiss and needs to be looked at.

And don't forget that my budget has $80,000 per year base salary to the teacher for working just 9 months. That's extremely generous and can be brought down quite a bit and still be well above the present average.

If costs are going to go up more than linearly so that running 20 classrooms combined ends up costing more than 20 times as much as running one classroom, I'd like to hear a rational justification for it. Any time there are diseconomies of scale, it should be looked at closely. After all, if operating one high school with 2000 students is going to cost more that twice as much as running a high school with 1000 students, then maybe we should have two high schools with 1000 students instead.

Insurance is definitely a consideration I hadn't taken into account. I would have to look into that a bit to see what would seem reasonable.

The report I found that I used above for the Massachusetts per pupil funding breaks things down moderately well, though there are some apparent discrepancies that I need to read the text more closely to see if I can resolve. That will take some time. Of course, that will tell me only what is being claimed is being spent in the various areas, such as transportation and student services, not what is reasonable.

My budget did allow for support staff at the rate of one per ten teachers for things that cannot be outsourced to a professional administrative support organization. And the number I used was way above the number I was given when I first did this 15 years or so where I actually called around and got estimates for these things. I called a company one of the larger such companies and explained what I was looking for and they said that they would likely charge about $100/mo per teacher, or $1200/yr instead of the $8000/yr I allowed for. In looking for updated numbers last night, I found ranged of $20 to $200 per employee per month and 4% to 8% of employee salary. The top ends of both would be $2400/ye and $6400/yr, so I was being very generous.

I just looked up what school's say it costs them for school lunch production. The numbers are from a study looking at 2005 data. The median is under $2.50/meal, compared with my $10/meal budget. If I just used what the schools claim they are actually spending, it would free up $30,000/yr from my budget.

In looking at the first report I mentioned, for every two dollars they spend on wages and benefits for classroom instruction they pay one dollar for administratative support wages and benefits. Doesn't that seem out-of-kilter?

 

Speaking of Meals some kids go to school just to get 2 square meals a day.

I'm sure in this number may have been lower, but who knows what that figure might be today.

 

Speaking of Meals some kids go to school just to get 2 square meals a day.

The NSLP (National School Lunch Program) offers reimbursements to the schools at different rates for "Free", "Reduced Pricing" and "Full Pricing" meals at school. That is breakfast, lunch, and a snack.

You can read the FACT Sheet at http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/Lunch/AboutLunch/NSLPFactSheet.pdf

 

Returns to state board of education meeting ,board members and staff. There are

procedures on who and how a question can be asked ,that insures nothing will get

done without a lot of studies by committees that never see a students needs.

They record there meetings using there verbage that the average person don't

understand. Members have to go thru the chairman to speak ,so the chairman

controls the meeting and out come. So like this post you want to get information

to form an opinion ,you say what was that all about. He just posted something

that means nothing. Would you like to pay a court reporter to get a chairman to

say you are out of order ,that why the news stay away from committee meetings.

So if a board member can't get an answer, there is no answer at the local school.

Board members are appointed ,once appointed they can only be replaced. Every

word of any action is approved by attorneys in the background ,lots of education

money goes into rule making. This post is like understanding how your child is being

educated ,the system is designed for non-answers.

 

Members have to go thru the chairman to speak ,so the chairman
controls the meeting and out come.

Point of Oder.

Incorrect assumption. The meeting probably follows Roberts Rules of Order. The chair don't control the outcome. If those in attendance don't know RROR, it could appear as you stated.

 

The chair has lots of power that some don't want to take on ,you can be right and

on the wrong side of the chair. .....Do you agree on the line item correction of bills

by attorneys. A bill is numbered to keep tract of legal opinions.

 

Do you agree on the line item correction of bills by attorneys. A bill is numbered to keep tract of legal opinions.

In today's litigious society, the government has the deepest pockets, so I would think a lawyer reviewing the actions of a BOE is an ounce of prevention.

At any meeting, the Chair probably knows RROR better than anyone else in the room, and as the person responsible to keep the meeting flowing and "under civil discourse", strict adherence to Roberts Rules helps that. Prior to Major Roberts U.S. Army, writing how to conduct meetings in the 19th Century, it was most likely a big CF. So, if you want to be heard, get a copy of RR to see the scheme of things. There are plenty of RR guides on the internet. The proper injection at the proper time is the way to conduct business.

You can be as right as right can be. If you can't follow the rules to get your point heard, you've wasted your time showing up. I made a motion, and then I wouldn't discuss it anymore because no one seconded the motion. Once I informed the crowd I needed a second to further discuss, a lot of people seconded. Learn the procedure and then disrupt to your heart's content.