ID and the bible..

Thread Starter

FredM

Joined Dec 27, 2005
124
Let us attempt (it is utterly impossible to imagine we could get close..) to imagine an entity capable of creating this incredible universe.. This entity would need to devise ALL the physics, All the mathematics (although this is just a human analogy) and all the dependencies we can observe.. and FAR more.. Everything, from first principles to implementation and creation, would need to be within the comprehension of this entity - an entire 'tool kit' from nothing, and inventive capability so far beyond our comprehension as to make any comparison laughable.. We would be less than ameoba compared to humans..

Then, let us imagine that this entity wished to communicate its wishes or instructions to us..

An entity capable of such creation would have no problem whatsoever in delivering its communication in an unambiguous way - it would not need to use human scribes - but assuming it chose this method, it could 'dictate' the data in a form which was compatable with human understanding of the time, and yet be true and compatable with human understanding as it progressed.

This is NOT what we have in ANY of the "holy" scripts - They are ALL ENTIRELY of HUMAN origin, limited by the understanding that HUMANS had at the time they were written.. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE FACT revealed in ANY of these texts which contains ANYTHING which was not known by the HUMAN science of the time..

And as humans gained more understanding, the writings, and data contained therein, became obsolete - The data was WRONG, and could be PROVED TO BE WRONG. And the fact that the data could become obsolete and could be seen to be WRONG, PROVES that these texts WERE NEVER INSPIRED BY ANY ENTITY CAPABLE OF CREATING ANYTHING, LET ALONE THIS INCREDIBLE UNIVERSE!
 

recca02

Joined Apr 2, 2007
1,214
religion is a primary factor for many crisis (political and social) i dont think anything good comes form blind faith in those.
Then, let us imagine that this entity wished to communicate its wishes or instructions to us..
again there is a possibility that this entity never wished to have such a communication.
it wanted earthlings to learn and act on their own and then judge them on that very basis. as to why maybe we're not intelligent enough to know , who knows why he created this world in the first place.
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,084
it would not need to use human scribes - but assuming it chose this method, it could 'dictate' the data in a form which was compatable with human understanding of the time, and yet be true and compatable with human understanding as it progressed.
"Metaphor" is the word which best applies.

I've got a different posit for you: What if the Divine were created along with the universe and humanity? (There is at least one myth of the Divine pulling Itself out of a reflection of Itself, thereby creating Itself - and the universe coming along as a side-effect.) Or, what if the metaphors of the various systems of faith were simply the Divine trying to figure Herself out? ("...if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.") Or, as you posit above, providing humans with guidelines understandable regardless of scientific background and understanding?

Certainly Monotheist extremists have chosen to misinterpret their scriptures. They have chosen to ignore the metaphors and to interpret literally. But does such error really invalidate any meaning within those metaphors? Isn't such thinking "fallacist's fallacy?"
 

Thread Starter

FredM

Joined Dec 27, 2005
124
thingmaker3;45027 But does such error really invalidate any meaning within those metaphors? Isn't such thinking "fallacist's fallacy?"[/quote said:
No, it doesnt.. And I have absolutely no problem with these texts as metaphor. I do have problem with metaphor which expounds / promotes practices which are not acceptable by our (present) human ethics.. For example, text in Numbers where god directly instructs genocide of all (the enemy) specifically including all men, women and children - except for female children "who have not known a man by lying with him" who those involved in the genocide could keep alive for themselves..

And my challenge is NOT a blanket "anti god" attack.. it is specifically about literal interpretation and literal dogmatic belief of texts which can be proved to be nonsense if interpreted literaly.

I can imagine all kinds of scenarios where creation by a god is possible.. For that matter, we cannot know that anything physical has actually been created - we may all exist as imagined entities within the mind of god.. We may even be god (or part of god) in some 'matrix' (and please - I am not making reference here to the utterly stupid film "the matrix"!) in which we participate in creating and changing our imagined universe..

But for now, my focus is on the "here and now" and I am staying within the bounds of the "physical" and whatever can, within this, be shown to be "true" and be shown to be false.

I have given up getting involved in debate where creationists 'hang out' - debate on these sites is pointless and the levels of dishonesty and self desception staggering.. I posted this here in the hope that I would get more intellegent honest debate.. I have not been disapointed.

I DO have an agenda - my agenda is to place issues 'on the table' for discussion. I would be surprised if anyone managed to change my mind on these issues - but I am open to change.. If someone gave me an answer or pointed me in a direction which I could accept (does not force me to stop thinking in order to believe baloney) then I would GLADLY 'change sides'... As it stands at present, I hope to persuade those with (at least)rudamentary understanding of science, who may have been conned into literal belief of the "holy" texts, of how nonsensical these texts are.

Having once been a young person who had a good grasp of science, but was torn between 'faith' and 'understanding' I know that not all fundamentalists are complete morons..
 

Art

Joined Sep 10, 2007
806
I personally revere the words / person of Jesus, and feel that if He had been listened to, we would be living in a much better world.
Well I don't know where you're getting his words from because he said:
No man enters the kingdom of Heaven but through me
It doesn't appear to matter if there is an almighty that knows the true mass of the Higgs Boson particle,
as life on Earth is going to end earlier than scheduled by nature one way or another through our lack of discipline,
and it appears we are at least accountable for one massive sin whether we are held to judgement or not.

Anyway, back to the point, if you use, or believe the words of Jesus,
it sounds like you're rather selective about which ones you take onboard.
The ressurection is detailed in the King James bible you're reading from.
Jesus also predicted his future toward the time of his being crucified,
and explained to his diciples, the meaning of the first holy communion.
Cheers, Art.
 

HarveyH42

Joined Jul 22, 2007
426
I believe religion and spiritalism has a place and purpose. It promotes peace, and gives hope to those suffering. It imparts some sense of morality, and reminds us there are ultimately consequences for are actions. The origion of the wisedom isn't critical, it's still good stuff.

I tend to believe that if there were a creator (wonder who created the creator...), he would have just made the thing, set it motion, and just watch and wonder where it will go. Considering the history, I have a tough time seeing divine intervention. This planet is all ours, we can make a paradise or flaming hell. We have everything we need to go either way.

Personally, if I had made this, it would probably have been scrapped for parts, or just chucked in the trashcan. Make this beautiful planet, full of wonderous places, and cool looking creatures, the those damn humans start ripping it, knocking it down, burning stuff, killing theirselves and most anything that moves, mostly just because they can.
 

Voltboy

Joined Jan 10, 2007
197
.

This is NOT what we have in ANY of the "holy" scripts - They are ALL ENTIRELY of HUMAN origin, limited by the understanding that HUMANS had at the time they were written.. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE FACT revealed in ANY of these texts which contains ANYTHING which was not known by the HUMAN science of the time..

And as humans gained more understanding, the writings, and data contained therein, became obsolete - The data was WRONG, and could be PROVED TO BE WRONG. And the fact that the data could become obsolete and could be seen to be WRONG, PROVES that these texts WERE NEVER INSPIRED BY ANY ENTITY CAPABLE OF CREATING ANYTHING, LET ALONE THIS INCREDIBLE UNIVERSE!
Actually in the jews scripts lot of nature things are said, including the pythagoras theorem (they dont use any formula they just tell the way to find the measure of the temple, and they use something really similar to the theorem). Its says about the Triangle of the Bermudas, but it says something like "in the far ocean there is an area where all the metal get sucked by the abysm" or something like that. Also somewhere it says about pi.
But one of the things that most surprised me was when I read about how many stars are in the Universe. The jew scripts tells it, and if you look on the NASA numbers its really similar.
And more lot of things, I know this because I have a jew friend and he showed me.
 

Thread Starter

FredM

Joined Dec 27, 2005
124
Ok - Lots of different issues here..

Anyway, back to the point, if you use, or believe the words of Jesus, it sounds like you're rather selective about which ones you take onboard.
The resurrection is detailed in the King James bible you're reading from.
Jesus also predicted his future toward the time of his being crucified,
and explained to his diciples, the meaning of the first holy communion.
Cheers, Art.



I do NOT believe the bible is accurate or "inspired" - The process of taking texts out of context and using them as absolutes is pointless.. Particularly if they are to emphasize some narrow point, like the exclusive entrance to the 'kingdom' through Jesus. Nothing gets me angrier than this kind of dishonesty.. John 3:16 is the MOST QUOTED bible text, and defines the CHRISTIAN message.. But this is NOT the same message (if one believes any words attributed to Jesus in the NT are verbatim) that Jesus spent most of his time preaching --

Go back a few verses in John 3 and you will find Jesus effectively stating that HE IS NOT CHRIST! The bitterest aspect of this is that it has been LONG known by theologians, and recent editions of the bible have CHANGED this verse DELIBERATELY despite the fact that there is NO AMBIGUITY IN THE ORIGINAL TEXTS.. Why? because this verse is a 'problem' and has been used by 'sects' like the JW's to 'prove' their angle. I do not have my bible with me right now, and cannot be bothered to get it because I know you will ignore whatever I say anyway - But I think it is John 3:13 and Jesus is talking to the disciples (on Earth!) AFTER the "resurrection" and states "No man has gone up to heaven except the man who came down from heaven, he is The Son of Man WHO IS IN HEAVEN" - The "Who is in heaven" is being deleted from modern bibles for NO REASON other than it CONTRADICTS THE BASIC CHRISTIAN LIE - Jesus NEVER stated that He was "The Christ" or "The Son of Man" (For those not versed in theology, the "Son of Man" is not what the words say - it is reserved for "the Christ").

The way it went was something like this.. Jesus was probably going about teaching things which were profound and wise.. many of these sayings were recorded (written) at the time onto what theologians now refer to as “The book of Q” or “The lost gospel”. Many copies existed, and it formed the basis of the Gospel according to Mark, and Matthew, can also be seen to have been used in Thomas, and to a lesser extent the other gospels. After Jesus ‘disappearance’, there was a power struggle amongst believers, which fractured the group (as Rome wanted) and Paul took the reigns in the process of deification of Jesus (A job he was highly qualified for, as it was his role when he was working for the emperor as Saul prior to his ‘conversion’..)

The process involved creating fictitious events, and elaborate structure, on which to build a new Roman religion – This religion was created – and it had almost NOTHING to do with the teachings of Jesus recorded in ‘Q’ .. Here are a few examples of words said by Jesus and recorded in ‘Q’ before being ‘spliced’ into the Gospels:

“Judge not, and YOU SHALL NOT BE JUDGED – For the STANDARDS YOU USE TO JUDGE OTHERS are THE STANDARDS BY WHICH YOU WILL BE JUDGED”

“The way you treat those who are less fortunate than you, is the way you are treating God” Which follows from a parable where “the self-righteous” are being accused by God of having treated Him ‘badly’ [not visiting Him when He was in prison (!) not feeding him when He was starving, not ministering to Him when He was sick etc) they are indignant, saying “Lord” “When did we not do these things for you?” And He tells them in no uncertain terms!

Take a New testament with the WORDS OF JESUS OUTLINED and READ THESE without reading the “commentary” provided by the biased narrator.. YOU WILL SEE that almost NOTHING EMPHSASISED BY THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH (Regardless of denomination) IS EMPHASISED BY JESUS, AND THAT WHAT JESUS REPEATEDLY EMPHASISES IS RARELY PREACHED BY THE CHURCH!

You should read "The Lost Gospel" by Burton L. Mack (ISBN 1-85230-551-7)

PLEASE NOTE – I POSTED THIS THREAD TO DEBATE FUNDAMENTALIST VIEWS ON CREATION – I FEEL WE ARE GETTING UNAVOIDABLY INTO THEOLOGY OF A DIFFERENT KIND, AND I BELIEVE SUCH DEBATE IS POINTLESS.

IF YOU ACCEPT GENESIS AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH, THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS.. The Other nonsense is not worth discussing if this point is not resolved. The fact that I revere SOME of the ALLEDGED words of Jesus should not be license (I feel) to personally criticize me.. I made my position extremely clear, I think the “no man cometh” verse is one of those verses which has been isolated and used to make Christianity the “only acceptable religion” by fundamentalists – and this interpretation has probably caused many violent deaths


Actually in the jews scripts lot of nature things are said, including the pythagoras theorem (they dont use any formula they just tell the way to find the measure of the temple, and they use something really similar to the theorem). Its says about the Triangle of the Bermudas, but it says something like "in the far ocean there is an area where all the metal get sucked by the abysm" or something like that. Also somewhere it says about pi.
But one of the things that most surprised me was when I read about how many stars are in the Universe. The jew scripts tells it, and if you look on the NASA numbers its really similar.
And more lot of things, I know this because I have a jew friend and he showed me.


You don’t think the creator of the universe could do something a little more persuasive than allude to Pythagoras ? Doesn’t the nonsense in Genesis kind of outweigh this? – As for “number of stars” the only reference I know of is that “The seed of Abraham would be numbered as the grains of sand and the stars” – If you are telling me that there are an equal number of sand grains that there are stars, I would need to know what date the sand was counted on, and do some quick calculations.

I believe religion and spiritalism has a place and purpose. It promotes peace, and gives hope to those suffering. It imparts some sense of morality, and reminds us there are ultimately consequences for are actions. The origion of the wisedom isn't critical, it's still good stuff.

I agree with spirituality, but not about religion – which has caused, in one form or another, most of the violent death and destruction on this planet.

I will NOT be replying to ANY posts which are not dealing with the original issue I raised.. The FACT that Genesis CANNOT be taken Literally!
 

Art

Joined Sep 10, 2007
806
I know you will ignore whatever I say anyway
Asumeth not that I am here to shoveth thy King James Bible down thy throat,
as I have notteth judgethed of you for your knowledge that thou hast assumethed of me.

You stated your info came from the KJ bible, so my assumption I think was automatic and rational.
 

Thread Starter

FredM

Joined Dec 27, 2005
124
Asumeth not that I am here to shoveth thy King James Bible down thy throat,
as I have notteth judgethed of you for your knowledge that thou hast assumethed of me.

You stated your info came from the KJ bible, so my assumption I think was automatic and rational.
:D:D !!! LOL !!! :D:D
 

Art

Joined Sep 10, 2007
806
Your knowledge of the bible is good.
My Father was a preacher for a very large church for many years.

No matter how little and weak my faith these days,
it is very hard for me to entirely disbelieve the bible as a whole.
I have years of neuro linguistic programming to contend with afterall.
But that can possibly be keeping my behaviour somewhat "in check".

I have learned that some of those sins you appear to have gotten away with will
come back and bite you on the ass, and none of them do the world any good.

I don't think anyone is going to be able to address the Genesis issue for you ;)
 

Voltboy

Joined Jan 10, 2007
197
You don’t think the creator of the universe could do something a little more persuasive than allude to Pythagoras ? Doesn’t the nonsense in Genesis kind of outweigh this? – As for “number of stars” the only reference I know of is that “The seed of Abraham would be numbered as the grains of sand and the stars” – If you are telling me that there are an equal number of sand grains that there are stars, I would need to know what date the sand was counted on, and do some quick calculations.

Well actually the jewish have many more scripts than genesis and the other 4. There is something they call Guemara, which is like the explanation of all the 5 scripts and beyond. So in one of those books (there are about 40) it says that THE CREATOR created x quantity of stars for this nation, and y quantity of stars for this nations, etc.


About your first post:
The Creator he actually created what we know as "stars" and light". He created "stars", in His terms. What we know as stars is maybe something different, we say that stars are in space and they produce light that need to travel for some billions years. But God created the stars that you see in the night, so he actually created the light of the stars. He did it the right way. But couldn't it be that is us (all the humanity),trying to explain something out of our possible intelligence, that made all the theories about light speed and stars and orbits.
If you deny that there is one Creator, then what? you will say that everything made up from nowhere. That from a small particle something like the life of everything could be made. Humans got about 200 years trying to replicate a human and they even are near this objective, how could you say that an inert molecule or many, laying in the "nowhere" build up and created earth, life, galaxies, stars, human's brain. It's just illogical to say that everything made up alone.
But after this always is the question without an answer. "What was before that Creator, how he appeared?
And if we are saying about your idea then "What was before of that molecule, from where it came..?

This topic has made up wars, genocides, and infinitely amount of discussion since thousands of year ago, so there is no point of arguing, we know we won't get the answer.
Sorry if my english is bad, I'm a spanish speaker.
 

Thread Starter

FredM

Joined Dec 27, 2005
124
Your knowledge of the bible is good.
My Father was a preacher for a very large church for many years.

No matter how little and weak my faith these days,
it is very hard for me to entirely disbelieve the bible as a whole.
I have years of neuro linguistic programming to contend with afterall.
But that can possibly be keeping my behaviour somewhat "in check".

I have learned that some of those sins you appear to have gotten away with will
come back and bite you on the ass, and none of them do the world any good.

I don't think anyone is going to be able to address the Genesis issue for you
Hi Art,

Sorry that I came over so harsh! - We have something big in common.. My father was a converted Jew who became a Baptist minister, and then directed a large 'mission' ( The South African Society for the propagation of the gospel amongst the Jews ) - I was brought up totally saturated in everything 'Christian'. There was no TV in S.A. (we wouldn’t have been allowed to watch it even if there had been..) and the only moving image I saw until I was about 12 were religious films.. Mostly from the "Moody Bible institute" - I learned about the wonder of nature (apart from my own observations - particularly after I bought a 2nd hand microscope) from films expounding the "fallacies" of evolution. The first movie I was allowed to see was Mary Poppins - I must have been about 12.

Apart from my upbringing, I was also personally deeply spiritual / religious - I accepted Jesus at 6 (entirely of my own free will) and baptized at 12 (which I demanded - despite the church saying I should wait till I was 13 and "knew what I was doing").. I left school at 14 and started a correspondence course in electronics whilst studying part time at a bible college - my goal was to qualify in both electronics and theology so that I could join the "Logos" missionary ship when it was due to visit S.A. some years later.

"Life is what happens while your busy making other plans".. Early in my childhood, I had an ethical dilemma, and asked my mother how to go about resolving it.. She said something to me which has had a more profound influence on my life than anything else - Thanks Mum! She said "Just pray, and ask" "WHAT WOULD JESUS DO IN THIS SITUATION".

I was 14, and was going with a team promoting an American evangelist, and "spreading the word".. We went to one of the poorest "Colored" areas (These people could not even have attended the event, as it was in a "whites only" designated area) and we were sent door-to-door to SELL bibles and books to these people who barely could afford to live.. There was high pressure selling. I protested that this did not feel right, and was ignored. I then asked THE QUESTION, and got a CLEAR "answer".. I took as many bibles as I could carry, split from the crowd, and started giving them free to whoever wanted.. I spent the afternoon handing out bibles.. until they were all gone.. Gathered in the back of the mini bus, the s*** hit the fan! "You sold a lot" they said with awe (there was only a pile of the evangelists books left - I did not believe these were 'gods' to give away) - "No - I never sold any - I gave them away".. I was searched, interrogated, lambasted - and my parents were informed.. They could not afford the bill, but, bless them, they scraped the money up and stood by me.

This single event changed my life - I had been having problems reconciling the science I was learning on my course with the theology I was learning, and the injustices of the Apartheid system and the churches endorsement of this system.. A lot of the pieces clicked.. I had committed myself to JESUS, NOT TO THE CHURCH! NOT TO “CHRISTIANITY”! – It took 2 further years before I fully made the break – by this time I was heavily involved in the anti-apartheid movement, and mixing with atheists and agnostics and communists.. I found ethics and behavior from these people far more ‘in tune’ with the teachings of Jesus than I found in the church (there were some notable exceptions, for example, Bishop Tutu and Steve Biko who I had the honor of meeting were people who LIVED by the teachings of Jesus).

I had to leave S.A. in 1977.. Had I not, I would, at best, have been released from detention when apartheid was vanquished. It took me many years to restructure my psychology, and get to where I am today.. and it has been PAINFUL. I still carry a love for Jesus – but it is now more realistic – Jesus was a MAN, and He made mistakes..

As for my "sins" - I would be quite happy if I was wrong, and ended up standing before the great white throne - Oh, I would "fail" - that is for sure.. But so would everyone else! Judged by the standards I judge others on, I would fail. Judged by standards of Matthew 25:34-45, I would fail.. I smoke, the cost of each fag could stop some parent from seeing their child die needlessly - I stand utterly condemned.
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,084
Isn't there some story about Jesus toppling the carts of the merchants on the Temple steps? Getting violent because folk were trying to turn a profit from spirituality? (Oral Roberts and the Bakers come to mind...)

Would He wear a pinky ring, would He drive a brand new car?
Would His wife wear furs and diamonds, would His dressin' room have a star?
If He came back tomorrow, well there's somethin' I'd like to know!
Could ya tell me, Would Jesus wear a Rolex on His television show?
- Ray Stevens, 1993
 

Art

Joined Sep 10, 2007
806
Isn't there some story about Jesus toppling the carts of the merchants on the Temple steps? Getting violent because folk were trying to turn a profit from spirituality? (Oral Roberts and the Bakers come to mind...)
That's quite correct. He made a whip and drove them out, and overturned the
tables where money changed hands.
The moral of the story is not to use a church as a market place when Jesus is in town ;)
I can't help but feel you're drawing attention to the many bookstores in church foyers? :D
Well Christianity isn't the only religion who's followers flog off their own literature.
(Note to Self: Create a web Site for the Amish, and they will never know it exists!)

@ FredM,
I was sure you had a religeous background, that's a cool story, and interesting!
and to feel giulty for smoking of all acts, and evil thoughts of Humans.

It sounds like we do have something in common, I am aware of more than the physical, and I have absolute faith where that is concerned,
but I do find it hard to accept an entire book as gospel (so to speak) :D
This resulted in a lot of confusion where other influences came into play
(Chinese religion that came allong with martial arts for example).
Many great people in history have set fine examples for our race, but according
to Christian church,
to allow such influence, is to actually allow the work of Satan.
I'm 33 Yrs old now, and can handle it, but not good for a 17 yr old attending a church youth group.
 

Thread Starter

FredM

Joined Dec 27, 2005
124
Many great people in history have set fine examples for our race, but according to Christian church, to allow such influence, is to actually allow the work of Satan. I'm 33 Yrs old now, and can handle it, but not good for a 17 yr old attending a church youth group.
Oh yes.. I know that place! :mad:
This is the mind F*** that all the fundamentalist groups use.. and it is a killer! The introduction of "Satan" and "Demonic forces" and "Angels" and the "Unseen warfare"- And the elevation of this unseen and mystical and unchallengeable "war" to a status where the day-to-day 'normal' activities pale into insignificance.. And the control of interpretation of events 'happening' in this unseen 'battleground' being held by a few ministers or 'elders'.. And the "stakes" are so "high" - Eternal life in bliss, or eternal damnation being burned in hell..

All this becomes a recipe for serious mental illness – If you think thoughts which are outside of the ‘framework’ then they are being put there by the devil.. If you voice your thoughts, you are acting as Satan’s mouthpiece, if your question “causes a brother to stumble” then “you would have been better off if you’d put a millstone around your neck and jumped down the toilet” (I paraphrased that a bit – LOL :D).. And it goes on and on.. There is no way that anyone who has not lived through the NIGHTMARE of adolescence under those conditions who can begin to comprehend the POWER it has over one, or the ABUSE one is subjected to FROM ONESELF AND FROM THE CHURCH.

And I also think it is easier for me to understand how a young man or woman can strap explosives to themselves and terminate their lives and the lives of the innocent around them.. If they believe this is an act which impacts on the “unseen war”, and they believe this “war” is real, they will do it.. Likewise, no politician who was a true follower of Jesus could instigate an invasion or deploy the methods seen in Iraq, which was (is) terrorism as much as 9/11..

Alas, They never bother to study the words of those they claim to revere the most.. They don’t study the words of Mohammad or Jesus or whoever.. They listen to the narrow dogma spouted by some fundamentalist group within the umbrella religion..

The words, for example, in the Quran COULD NEVER justify the killing of innocents or non-combatant women or children.. The Quran according to Islam is the only book of instruction which is entirely divinely inspired (and there is a copy of the Quran in heaven) – but these groups use other texts which they claim to be as, if not more important.. thus (even within the context of their religion) they are fundamentalists only because they are fundamentally wrong... Just as the "Fundamentalists" in the White house and the one who was at #10 were fundamentally wrong.
 

Thread Starter

FredM

Joined Dec 27, 2005
124
Isn't there some story about Jesus toppling the carts of the merchants on the
Temple steps? Getting violent because folk were trying to turn a profit from spirituality? (Oral Roberts and the Bakers come to mind...)
Yes.. Apart from brief reference to Jesus questioning the disciples about how much money they had, so as to buy a sword - which it appears was used by Peter in a half-hearted attempt to decapitate a centurion (shortly before the crucifixion - Jesus lost His nerve for a moment) this is the only account of 'violent' action by Jesus..

However, the WORDS of Jesus repeatedly instruct against accumulation of wealth - The "sermon on the mount" in Matthew is probably the most anti-capitalist speech ever made.. His parables backed this up.. And His followers PRACTICED what He preached.. So much so, that one of the only independent historical sources remembers these followers because they were “easy pickings” for fraudsters.. who would leave their coat at home, and get another one from the first Jesus follower they met.

Despite this, these followers increased dramatically in number – right up to about AD 80.. They became a BIG problem for Rome, as they undermined the system.. Rome reacted by commissioning Saul to infiltrate the group and use the divisions which were starting to show in a classic “divide and conquer” maneuver, and Christianity was born.

I felt more at home with communists than I did with Christians.. Apart from their ideology about religion and god, almost everything they said and did was more compatible with the teachings of Jesus than I had found in any church… In fact, for a short while I ‘became’ a communist... But found that it, too, was practicing mind F***ing.

And I have just done what I said I would not do.. gone right off topic and away from the FACT that Genesis is baloney.. LOL!
 

Thread Starter

FredM

Joined Dec 27, 2005
124
Yes.. Apart from brief reference to Jesus questioning the disciples about how much money they had, so as to buy a sword - which it appears was used by Peter in a half-hearted attempt to decapitate a centurion (shortly before the crucifixion - Jesus lost His nerve for a moment) this is the only account of 'violent' action by Jesus..
Just to avoid any misunderstanding - I am quite sure the above tale was a fantasy.. it is only recorded in one gospel, and from my understanding of the history at the time, no Jew (or for that matter anyone under Roman occupation) who dared to raise a sword against a centurion would have been allowed to live.

I also made an error earlier when talking about the gospel of Q - it is Matthew, Luke and Thomas which used Q - not Matthew Mark and Thomas.
 

Art

Joined Sep 10, 2007
806
The man knows his bible.
You could go from door to door selling them.
Sorry can't help it ;)

I heard about some books that didn't make it into the Bible as they were not widely accepted or proven.
Perhaps you can submit Genesis as another one for that category.
Followed by the rest of the Bible one book at a time.

Then you'll have less to carry from door to door.
 
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