I'm not sure if this is the right category for this question, but in researching how geiger muller tubes are made I came accross a few articals of people making them on there own. The question I have is usually a muller tube has one anode wire running the long way (same direction as the tube) I was wondering if the wire was placed the adjacent way, across the short distance, from side to side instead of end to end, also instead of 1 wire having multiple wires. Would the tube still work the same way, would it even work at all? If it did work would it be less efficient? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, I'm just wondering why or why not it may be better or worse in a different configuration.

 

why would you do this? What provoked the question? Do you have some expectation?

 

It's an avalanche device so you normally want the largest cross-section of a ionization channel (the length of the cathode to anode electric field) for each ionizing particle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townsend_discharge

The same basic principle is used for some UHV gauges that also utilize a magnetic field to widen vacuum detection range.

From the link above.

Penning Discharge
In the presence of a magnetic field, the likelihood of an avalanche discharge occurring under high vacuum conditions can be increased through a phenomenon known as Penning discharge. This occurs when electrons can become trapped within a potential minimum, thereby extending the mean free path of the electrons [Fränkle 2014].

https://www.ms-museum.org/cold-cathode-vacuum-gauge

 

I am watching this thread with great interest, I would like to know how to use a Geiger tube for a project that I want to do.

 

I am watching this thread with great interest, I would like to know how to use a Geiger tube for a project that I want to do.

There's not much else to talk about the tubes internally unless you want to build a tube.
Circuits are pretty simple: https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/pocket-geiger-unit

 

Thanks everyone for your replies. Another question I had is that for example if you had 500 volts across the anode & cathode would there be a constant small voltage/capacitance from the cathode to ground resistor during the "off time" with no current flowing, then current flows when the tube "fires" or would/should there be no voltage/current from the cathode to ground resistor and once the tube fires then voltage is created and current flows? Trying to diagnose a tube that came with my counter that is currently not working.

 

Thanks everyone for your replies. Another question I had is that for example if you had 500 volts across the anode & cathode would there be a constant small voltage/capacitance from the cathode to ground resistor during the "off time" with no current flowing, then current flows when the tube "fires" or would/should there be no voltage/current from the cathode to ground resistor and once the tube fires then voltage is created and current flows? Trying to diagnose a tube that came with my counter that is currently not working.

Voltage until firing is basically correct. Maybe the tube has been cracked or leaked to atmosphere and lost the partial pressure of a normal tubes gasses. There is a relationship between vacuum levels, gasses and voltage breakdown voltages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen's_law

 

Voltage until firing is basically correct. Maybe the tube has been cracked or leaked to atmosphere and lost the partial pressure of a normal tubes gasses. There is a relationship between vacuum levels, gasses and voltage breakdown voltages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen's_law
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Thank you, but I didn't understand..you said voltage until firing was essentially correct. Did you mean no voltage until firing. I'm sorry for not understanding.

 

It depends on where you measure voltages in the circuit.

The tube is an insulator until triggered by a ionizing event so the tube supply voltage will be across the tube until it fires.

 

There's not much else to talk about the tubes internally unless you want to build a tube.
Circuits are pretty simple: https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/pocket-geiger-unit

There was no rundown on the circuit, I understand and can identify everything else, but I haven't seen this component that is going to ground. What is it depicting?

 

There was no rundown on the circuit, I understand and can identify everything else, but I haven't seen this component that is going to ground. What is it depicting?

Looks like a feedback/bias adjustment for the HV pulse generator.

 

The whole idea is wrong. Muller tube is damn bad sensor unit. Zillionfold better is large area pin-diode, or it matrix. Why? Because last is more sensitive, more fast, senses even very mild Roentgen rays, as well the alpha and beta and anti-beta, of course gamma, and with bit tricky staff even neutrons. Vice versa, Muller senses only gamma and hard Roenthgen, and very very few and weekly - strong beta. By the way, expected life span of pin is centuries, while for Mueller - few years.

 

I don't completely agree. I had a GM tube Geiger counter that has a mica widow for alpha detection and it as as sensitive to alpha particles as I could have imagined. Maybe it is a limitation of my imagination, but the GM tube with a Mica Alpha window worked fine.

 

You are right about mica windows. However still it cannot sense the alpha. And worst, the filling gas loss via mica is significantly faster than via the metal. Thus, You have shortest possible term of "best before".
My sight is that such counter is just fun today, but crucially essential to survive if something will go wrong wirh russians tomorrow at noon, thus the hundreds of 300 Mt nukes will filth the Planet, thus next 30-50 years all Our survival strategies must rely on the Geiger figures, where there will no exist any possibility to exchange the spare Geiger tubulus. Simply - pin diodes is nicer and more trustworthy. They may persist the 50 years.
Sorry for dark mind, but I am living just 200 km of the Mordor impery boarder, and the "You yourself know who" lives just 900 km off from me near his mouse oleum place. I`m watchy.

 

Tubes in general.

Digital tube devices were in use until the 80's.


https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6418.html
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6088.html

 

Hello, and thank you all for replying to my questions as silly as they may be, but here is another.

So this device that I'm running generates a high voltage 2000+ Volts. On the negative side of my circuit I have it grounded to earth. **** NOTE **** I installed a dedicated earth ground in my "lab" that does not physically connect to the wiring in my house, it obviously is connected to the same dirt my house is built on.

Problem:

I have a geiger counter that runs off a 3.7v battery as well as a 5v USB cell phone type charger. When I have the geiger counter powered by the USB cable from the standard 2 PRONG 5 volt charger and I operated the contraption I have built, the geiger counter immediately goes into alarm mode and triggers the maximum counts it can display. I am assuming that what is happening is that when I operate said device somehow the geiger counters tube voltage is being increased causing it to saturate the tube and thus triggering? I am not super familiar with 120v residential wiring, but if the geiger counter is using the 2 prong charger witch is essentially connected to the ac mains hot and neutral and NOT earth how would/could the tube voltage be getting raised? Is there a chance that since my contraption is grounded to earth to a seperate redundant ground that the voltage is making its way into the 120v ground and inducing a voltage into one of the AC mains line? I'm just trying to figure out what why this is happening any ideas would be helpful.

 

Unless your lab utility power is separately derived (from a isolation transformer) that separate lab ground must (per code) be bonded to the utility ground, outside the residential if possible. Earth is not a zero potential across the dirt, it's a reference point to tie ground and neutral on US residential utility feeds, So if the potential at the Earth ground point changes (lightning, short circuit, etc ...), all ground and neutral connections inside the residential change with it reducing the shock and damage likelihood.
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/grounding/grounding-separately-derived-systems

A separately derived system is "a premises wiring system whose power is derived from a source of electric energy or equipment other than a service. Such systems have no direct electrical connection, including a solidly connected grounded circuit conductor, to supply conductors originating in another system," according to the NEC. Examples of a separately derived system include transformers in which the supply, or primary, is isolated from the secondary except by magnetic coupling; generators (stand-alone or alternate power source) where the grounded conductor (neutral) is not solidly connected in the transfer switch; battery/inverter systems where the output is not interconnected; and off-grid PV systems.

Separate "isolated" ground rods are notorious for creating two ground references at different potentials. This situation causes ground-loop current to circulate to attempt to equalize this difference in potential. This situation can cause intermittent system and equipment problems as well as a potential safety and equipment hazard.

Don't know if it's the cause of your geiger counter issues but it needs to be fixed.

 

Several YouTubers dedicated to electronics, have published videos related to teardowns of suicidal-chargers, a laconic term if you ask me.
Check for instance the DiodeGoneWild YT channel for lots of teardowns.

Back to your question: It could be that the charger you are using has very poor load regulation or lots of leakage currents.
But without any data, like voltage measurements, the speculation we can provide is only that, speculation.

 

Several YouTubers dedicated to electronics, have published videos related to teardowns of suicidal-chargers, a laconic term if you ask me.
Check for instance the DiodeGoneWild YT channel for lots of teardowns.

Back to your question: It could be that the charger you are using has very poor load regulation or lots of leakage currents.
But without any data, like voltage measurements, the speculation we can provide is only that, speculation.

Yea, unfortunately I don't think that's it, all my cell phone chargers use the same plug and they all work good, I've tried switching them out and I still get the same prob.