For those with ARMs (loans, not MCUs), LIBOR is going away.

Thread Starter

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,076
For those with Adjustable Rate Mortgages and other adjustable rate loans, particularly car loans but also some credit card accounts, be aware that the benchmark rate at which trillions of dollars in such loans are tied will be discontinued in 2021 (unless something changes, which seems unlikely).

This rate, the London Inter-Bank Offered Rate, or LIBOR, is being eliminated after a series of scandals in which officers at banks manipulated the rates by submitting fraudulent data. The data, which is collected daily, uses information about what the banks claim they are offering these loans at. But because the volume of such interbank transactions has gone down so much, often times these numbers (from a given bank) are not backed by any actual loans -- the number is simply what the bank says they would offer a loan at if they were to make one. This opens the door to collusion between a fairly small number of players to make minor manipulations in the rates and, because of the volume of loans tied to these rates (which include huge corporate and government contracts as well as personal), these can result in millions of dollars into the pockets of those involved. Many people have been banned from the financial industry and some have received lengthy prison terms.

The commission that overseas the index determined that the volume of these transactions is now simply too low to make it a viable index free from manipulation by small numbers of people, so they are simply getting rid of it.

So how does this affect you?

If you have a LIBOR-indexed loan, then it's pretty much guaranteed that it has a clause in it that says that if the LIBOR goes away that the lender can replace it with another suitable index. But which one? For new loans it won't make much of a difference because the margins in the contract will reflect any offset introduced by the new index rate. But for existing contracts, that margin is already hardwired into the contract and if they choose a new index that has an upward offset relative to the LIBOR, then the interest rate on your loan just went up, permanently, by whatever that offset is.

So the lenders are going to want to choose an index that has as large a positive offset as they can get away with -- and since new loans will adjust the margin to compensate, there is no penalty to doing so because it won't cost them any business down the road. The only thing they have to really worry about would be their reputation getting tarnished -- and haven't they already done that about as much as possible. That's unlikely because few people will notice since those affected know they have an adjustable rate and they expect the rate to generally go up and they have never read the contract they signed and so they don't know what their margin is or what index rate it is tied. The other thing would be a class action lawsuit at some point, and while I will not be at all surprised to see that happen, that will be many years after the fact and so it won't be much of a deterrent to the people making the decisions since all they care about is the short-term numbers.

A lot of work is already going into identifying or creating a new index that will (supposedly) be a drop-in replacement. It's possible that the regulators may pass rules mandating how existing loans are to be transitioned to a new index, but probably not.

So what should you do?

First, find out what the index and margin are on any significant adjustable rate loans you have. This is something you should do anyway. If you don't have your loan documents, call your mortgage servicer and they can usually look it up over the phone.

Second, seriously consider getting out of any adjustable rate loans before the transition. Again, that's something you should be doing anyway because it's unlikely that the rates are going to do much of anything except go up for the next few years (always subject to change, of course).
 

Thread Starter

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,076
Who in their right mind has variable interest loans when fixed rate loans are available at 3% and (recently much less)?
30 year fixed rate loans are currently 4% or a bit higher (according to BankRate.com and a few other sites). You can certainly buy the rate down and you might find better deals, particularly if you have a credit union or something like that. But I'll go with 4%.

But as to who has a variable rate loan? Lots and lots of people. Now, you can certainly argue that having one is a sign that they aren't in their right mind, but let's face it -- how many people make poor decisions when they borrow money because they lack the awareness, the math, and/or the reasoning skills to run the numbers? How many people are ONLY concerned with how much their mortgage payment is going to be, since that determines how much of a mortgage (and hence how much house) they can buy? So, to their thinking, that low teaser rate (which is all they see no matter what they are told) looks really attractive. The P&I on a 30-year $200k loan at 4% is $954/mo. Today, the teaser rates on ARMs aren't nearly as low as they were back when many people took them out and the spread used to very commonly be between one and two percentage-points. At 2.5% their payment would only be $790 or they could take out a $242k loan for the same payment. What fraction of homebuyers are swayed by the thought of getting 40% more home "for the same cost"?

Another reason that people take them out is if they are not planning to stay in the home much longer than the intro rate lasts or if they are planning to aggressively pay it down. Again, the differences in rates today don't really warrant that decision today, but five to ten years ago they sure did. That's the boat I'm in. I just looked up the average 30-year rates when I refinanced by house onto a 5/1 ARM in mid 2011. The rate was 4.27% and my rate for the first five years was 2.75%. Over those five years that saved me well over $12,000 in interest costs (which in turn saved me over a hundred thousand dollars over the life of the loan had I just refinanced at the 5-yr mark and then made minimum payments, which was never my plan). By the time the first adjustment came around in 2016, the rates were still low and they only went up to 3.5% and then this year it went to 4%. So I am still paying about what I would on a 30-yr fixed (noticeably less if I only consider loans that have sufficient negative points to cover the settlement costs). Now, if I still had a large balance I would have refinanced to a 15-yr fixed in 2016. But I had the balance down low enough that I couldn't even get a loan from most lenders and the ones that would lend had significantly higher closing costs because of the low balance.

Right now I am expecting them to go to somewhere between 4.5% and 5.0% when it adjusts this summer (which is why I was looking up LIBOR rates last night). But at that point I don't care what they go to. I am about to make a payment that will bring the balance down to under $10k. My plan is to park the projected balance on the adjustment date so that the new P&I is $50/mo. Then I will call the lender and offer to pay them five years of P&I payments if they will forgive the rest of the loan balance. If they agree they would write off around $5000 but they would get a loan off their books for which they are having to manage the escrows in exchange for very little money. My point to them (which I think is true, if only marginally) is that the presence of my loan actually hurts their portfolio and it would reduce the value of any bundle they include it in to get rid of it. I will also mention that I now have other things to target my investment funds in and am more than willing to just set up automatic payments for the $400 escrow and $50 P&I.

I'm not holding by breath that they will agree, but they might make a counteroffer. The worst they can do is say no, and they have every right to do so and there will be zero hard feelings. Which is not to say that I won't get the last laugh, however; I will immediately pay down the loan so that the monthly interest is less than $2.50 and that when it adjusts next year the P&I will be just under $0.005/mo (meaning $0.00). They can then service my escrows for free for the remaining 21 years (in some years the P&I will be $0.01/mo). Managing my own escrows isn't hard; I've done it before, but there is a non-zero hassle factor. This would mostly be for grins and giggles plus a bit of curiosity to see whether or not they even notice that the loan is now costing them money.
 

Thread Starter

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,076
My question has been answered - no one.
Thanks for confirming that you have zero interest in contributing to the thread, only in trolling and insulting me.

Since you only wish to disrupt my thread, I have requested that you be locked out of it.
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,928
I am not a business person by any means. But even I can imagine circumstances where time is worth more than money. Just as most depend on time for their money.......some depend on lack of time for their money.
 

dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
16,943
Since you only wish to disrupt my thread, I have requested that you be locked out of it.
I never knew there was such a feature. Where can I learn more about available features?

Regarding LIBOR. Fortunately, I'm at a stage in my life where I don't need to borrow money.
 

Thread Starter

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,076
I never knew there was such a feature. Where can I learn more about available features?
It's a moderator tool that I stumbled across some time back. I could apply the Reply Ban myself, but my policy is to recuse myself from any moderator action to which I am a party as a member. So I just reported the post and made the request and the other mods can then decide whether or not to act.

Regarding LIBOR. Fortunately, I'm at a stage in my life where I don't need to borrow money.
That's wonderful. In addition to the mortgage I also have a 401(k) loan that I took out when we were looking to move to Golden. We are hoping to be completely debt free within the next two years. I could make it out this year, but we want to really start injecting money into retirement plus get some overdue maintenance done on the house.

I was debt free for several years before buying this house and while we love the house, a big part of me wishes that I had stayed where I was and stayed debt free.
 

dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
16,943
I could make it out this year, but we want to really start injecting money into retirement plus get some overdue maintenance done on the house.
I ended up having to retire several years before what I had planned as my earliest possible retirement date. I had started increasing my 401(k) withholdings for bonuses, but hadn't gotten around to figuring out how much I could increase what was withheld from paychecks. As I understood it, you could lose excess money.

Anyway, I never got around to doing that and ended up retiring before I had maxed out my contributions.

So my advice is do it now because you never know when you're going to have an unexpected life changing event that is beyond your control.
 

philba

Joined Aug 17, 2017
959
I've been debt free for a number of years now but prior to that I had several mortgages. Each time the mortgage people pushed hard for the ARMs and I was always very resistant. Me: "So, the rates can go up at any time?" MP: "Yes but they could go down, too." Me: "How likely is either situation?" MP: "Oh, not very and they are usually small movements." Me: "Is there any cap on it?" <long pause> MP: "Well, no but they won't go up very much." Me: "No thanks."

The abuse and manipulation of the LIBOR seem very much consistent with other financial abuses in the last couple of decades - bond ratings, sub-prime lending and so on. At least the regulators seem to be catching people at it. Too bad almost no one goes to jail over it.

On banning people from a thread. I am of mixed thoughts on this but given that there are several forum members that like to inject non-sense, ramble off topic or argue their point in the extreme, I think it's good to have. Hope that it doesn't need to get used that often. Also, hopefully, the existence of the feature and occasional use will reduce the need for it.
 

Thread Starter

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
30,076
I've been debt free for a number of years now but prior to that I had several mortgages. Each time the mortgage people pushed hard for the ARMs and I was always very resistant. Me: "So, the rates can go up at any time?" MP: "Yes but they could go down, too." Me: "How likely is either situation?" MP: "Oh, not very and they are usually small movements." Me: "Is there any cap on it?" <long pause> MP: "Well, no but they won't go up very much." Me: "No thanks."
It's very much the case that not all ARMs are created equal. My ARM has caps on both the annual adjustments (no more than 2 %-pts in either direction) and an overall cap (no higher than 7.75% and no lower than 2.25%). The absolute requirement was that we be able to afford the payment at the 7.75% rate (this is how people with ARMs get themselves in serious trouble) and I had already paid down the original fixed mortgage so aggressively ($68k in about 2.5 years) that even if it started out at the max 7.75% rate the payment would have been $130 less than on the existing loan. So our risk of foreclosure was already less on the ARM than on the fixed rate loan it was replacing. But it reduced the interest charge that first month by $243 and by that going to principle instead that reduced the total interest that would have been paid on the remainder of the original loan by a further $998. And that's just from the first month's payment. Under the original amortization schedule we would have paid just over $231k in interest. But now the total interest we will have paid between both loans will be less than $50k.

We would have saved even more, but I had a period of underemployment and job uncertainty that lasted about two years and so it was hard to keep up the aggressive schedule I had been hoping for. That's actually another advantage of a properly utilized arm. As long as you have a cap on the amount it can adjust by each year, you can put as your first priority paying it down at least enough so that the minimum payment won't go up. It usually isn't too hard to make that happen and that means that your ability to weather financial storms improves as time goes by. My current minimum payment, even at 4% compared to the original 2.75%, is right about 1/3 of what it started at (and less than 1/6 of the original fixed-rate mortgage)

The abuse and manipulation of the LIBOR seem very much consistent with other financial abuses in the last couple of decades - bond ratings, sub-prime lending and so on. At least the regulators seem to be catching people at it. Too bad almost no one goes to jail over it.
I definitely concur.

On banning people from a thread. I am of mixed thoughts on this but given that there are several forum members that like to inject non-sense, ramble off topic or argue their point in the extreme, I think it's good to have. Hope that it doesn't need to get used that often. Also, hopefully, the existence of the feature and occasional use will reduce the need for it.
That is exactly our hope as well.
 
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I found the most suitable terms of loans here <link snipped>. I`m a person who is used to living beyond my means.

MOD NOTE: Promotional link removed.
 
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