Ethernet over Power

Thread Starter

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
9,679
(not Power over Ethernet)
Just a bit of a straw-poll, really - has anyone had any experience of the devices that send ethernet over the house wiring?
They must be fantastic and work perfectly well all the time because that's what the reviews on Amazon say, but what are the circumstances where they don't work too well?
 

AnalogKid

Joined Aug 1, 2013
10,988
My city and suburb has relatively clean and stable service, and two of my neighbors have no problems with it, at least as reliable as my wifi routers.

ak
 

Irving

Joined Jan 30, 2016
3,845
You mean 'powerline' adapters. I use them all the time across my rambling 1930s house. The latest AV600/AV1000 are much better than the earlier 200 and 500 technology. From the router in my study on the 1st floor its 15m to the consumer unit where the signal has to hop to a second consumer unit and from there an armoured cable runs 35m to my workshop & games room at the end of the garden - that's a testing environment. The old AV500 units managed 2-5Mbps but the new AV600 gives me a solid 46Mbps and streams internet video to the games room TV perfectly. Elsewhere I get 150-200Mbps to the Virgin Media box & TV in the living room.

Main issues are ropey wiring, poorly tightened connections.

Recommended.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
5,031
Mine works great. The caveat is that it is "supposed" to be on the same circuit. Mine is and haven't tried cross breaker operation as yet. I went for the "plug thru" models so I wouldn't impact available outlets.
1673038625420.png
 

Thread Starter

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
9,679
I think my scepticism stems from having made an "over the mains wiring" intercom many years ago, as a project in a hobby magazine, and it was rubbish!
From what I've read, the latest ones use a similar multi-band carrier system as ADSL, which has managed to get quite a decent data rate over several miles of local loop, and all I need is to get from the systems room (a.k.a pantry) round the downstairs ringmain through the fuse box, out down 20 metres of SWA to my shed.
 

Thread Starter

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
9,679
I had wondered about that, especially with ring mains (which I think are uniquely British). A ring main would give two paths for the signal to the breaker, so one would expect constructive/destructive interference when it reaches the breaker.
Otherwise, unless the inductance of the breaker plays a part, I can't imagine why the inside of the fusebox should present any additional impedance to the signal than the cable does.
 

Ya’akov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
9,078
I think the issue is probably across phases rather than across breakers. In the North American split phase wiring scheme, you might have one outlet on one side of the center tap and the other, on the other side.

While the ring means might present some kind of problem, it doesn’t have the potential for a transformer in the middle.
 

Thread Starter

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
9,679
I seem to think that the signal is injected between neutral and earth, so I also wonder what would happen if it is connected close to the PME point, where neutral and earth join where the supply enters the house.
If I were in Germany, I could just plug it in upside down and swap live and neutral.
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
I seem to think that the signal is injected between neutral and earth, so I also wonder what would happen if it is connected close to the PME point, where neutral and earth join where the supply enters the house.
If I were in Germany, I could just plug it in upside down and swap live and neutral.
I think that is incorrect.
I tested these a few years ago for communicating with a subsea tool. The idea was to save money by not requiring an umbilical cable with fiber optics or even shielded comms (or any comms media). It was powered from 120V from an isolation transformer (powerline device on transformer secondary). If memory serves, it worked. We ended up going a different direction and I don't remember why. Small chance, it could have been because my memory is wrong and it didn't work.
 

AnalogKid

Joined Aug 1, 2013
10,988
I think my scepticism stems from having made an "over the mains wiring" intercom many years ago, as a project in a hobby magazine, and it was rubbish!
I'd love to see that article.

Let us know how it does "cross breakers"! I've been a bit skeptical as to the "warning".
For my X-10 lighting modules, I installed 0.1 uF X1-X2-Y-rated film capacitors across the two phases and things have worked fine for decades. I would think that smaller valued ceramics caps (with all of the correct ratings) would do the same thing for power line Ethernet.

ak
 

boostbuck

Joined Oct 5, 2017
501
I've used them on a several properties. I use TP-Link and they work very well in my experience, with no problems crossing breakers in the power board, EXCEPT:

1) on a house powered from an RAPS Inverter (battery-to-240V). I think the high-frequency rubbish from the inverter interfered too much.

2) connecting via a power board - I found these can degrade the connection terribly - maybe the surge protection???
1673081455355.png
 

Thread Starter

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
9,679
I've used them on a several properties. I use TP-Link and they work very well in my experience, with no problems crossing breakers in the power board, EXCEPT:

1) on a house powered from an RAPS Inverter (battery-to-240V). I think the high-frequency rubbish from the inverter interfered too much.

2) connecting via a power board - I found these can degrade the connection terribly - maybe the surge protection???
View attachment 284710
One of my colleagues mentioned that his didn't work with a surge-protected extension lead.
I wonder if it doesn't work with the inverter for the same reason - the lead has filter capacitors, and the inverter has filter capacitors on the output which will appear as a short circuit at high frequencies.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,086
One of my colleagues mentioned that his didn't work with a surge-protected extension lead.
I wonder if it doesn't work with the inverter for the same reason - the lead has filter capacitors, and the inverter has filter capacitors on the output which will appear as a short circuit at high frequencies.
It's a kludge under the best conditions. If you have a choice, just say no. For the same price as a set of good adapters you could run a 'real' cable using cable compatible wall trim.
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/wiring/running-cables-through-existing-walls
 

Thread Starter

Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
9,679
It's not a question of a minor bit of carpentry, it would involve some serious digging (and more than 6" down I'm into solid chalk)
Is it any more of a kludge than trying to send it down miles of telephone cable? (aka ADSL). I would think that twin-and-earth has a fairly predictable characteristic impedance - I'm not sure what other countries' mains wiring cable looks like.
Screenshot at 2023-01-07 21-27-55.png
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,086
It's not a question of a minor bit of carpentry, it would involve some serious digging (and more than 6" down I'm into solid chalk)
Is it any more of a kludge than trying to send it down miles of telephone cable? (aka ADSL). I would think that twin-and-earth has a fairly predictable characteristic impedance - I'm not sure what other countries' mains wiring cable looks like.
View attachment 284725
I do understand that there are cases where it's the lessor of evils.
1673130824227.png1673130866868.png

Yes, it's more of a kludge than ADSL because at least there we have a somewhat controlled impedance twisted communications line that is tested and designated at the CO for actual communications properties instead of being for bulk AC power delivery that can have problems with a few tens of meters of high speed communications. The ability to equalize a stable transmission media for miles on TELCO twisted cables is not much of a kludge IMO.
https://www.eetimes.com/adsl-card-designs-present-analog-challenges-2/
How is this possible? Luckily, the copper wire medium was never the limiting factor in terms of frequency response in the public switched telephone network. Rather, it was the transducers (speakers and microphones), amplifiers, and hybrids (which enable two wires to carry bidirectional signals), and later the analog-to-digital and D/A converters used in digital portions of the signal chain that imposed the bandwidth limitations. With the transducers and data converters removed from the signal chain, the frequency response of the copper plant is prodigious.
https://www2.humusoft.cz/www/papers/tcp06/mazanec.pdf
 
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Ya’akov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
9,078
I do understand that there are cases where it's the lessor of evils.
In conditions like yours the (amazingly) easy way to do it is with a cable burying tool. This set has an additional tool to more firmly insert the cable (or irrigation pipe) into the trench.

1673145544401.jpeg

For just a single cable (coax, network, power) the method used by the cable companies is even faster. A very similar tool is used to make an incision into the turf at 45° all along the path of the run. Then, the tool is used to lift the turf and the cable is inserted progressively along the cut. When it’s done, tamping (usually with the foot) makes it virtually invisible.

1673145486953.jpeg

It’s very effective.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,086
In conditions like yours the (amazingly) easy way to do it is with a cable burying tool. This set has an additional tool to more firmly insert the cable (or irrigation pipe) into the trench.


For just a single cable (coax, network, power) the method used by the cable companies is even faster. A very similar tool is used to make an incision into the turf at 45° all along the path of the run. Then, the tool is used to lift the turf and the cable is inserted progressively along the cut. When it’s done, tamping (usually with the foot) makes it virtually invisible.


It’s very effective.
Thanks. That trenching shovel might be useful this spring for adding another dedicated network cable to the remote backup server in the shed.

One of the hardest parts of the job was hammering in a new ground rod to add to the house grounding grid (three total rods bonded). The antennas, power and comm cables are all surge protected and needed a good local ground for lightning protection. Proper user network device surge protection ( to reduce Ethernet port fried issues) with power-line Ethernet can be an issue because with works better with a direct copper to copper connection on both ends without the signal sucking filtering protection circuits seen on many surge protected power strips.
1673146609456.png1673146653613.png
 
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AnalogKid

Joined Aug 1, 2013
10,988
If you are running wire that is built for direct burial, consider renting a vibratory plow. In the right hands it is magical.

ak
 
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