Dayton Gearmotor 5K934 does not reverse, regardless of switching leads

Thread Starter

halfpint23

Joined Dec 2, 2017
9
I have the chore of replacing rotten wiring in a used hot walker (a machine used to walk horses in a circle for exercise) and installing a switch, so we can sell the thing.
It has a very old Dayton motor, the following info is taken from what is left of the specification plate on the motor:

Dayton Gearmotor Model 5K934
F/L RPM 12 HP ¼ Torque 600 in lb Ratio 144:1 Volts 115 hx 60 amp 4.6
Phase 1 code R Amb 40c cont.
To reverse direction interchange red and black

Obviously it had been over-lubed at some point in its life, though the top-mounted magnetic brake and it's heavy rubber tire are still unsullied. The wires hanging out of the motor, black, (barely) white and green, however, are decayed to the point of having hardly any color, and the former insulation is dropping off.
I did a temporary connection to a three wire power pigtail, stood well back and plugged it in - and it turns. Then, after a good shot of grease in the zerk fittings it turns better! HOWEVER.... reversing the connections of red (actually dirty white) and black wires makes no difference in the direction of rotation. I checked twice - nope, only turns one way regardless of how the power is connected. To be clear, the old outer green connects to what appears to be a case ground lug. The black outside wire connects to another lug inside that is also connected to the internal yellow wire. The dirty white wire appears to connect to an internal black wire. The internal red and blue disappear down the same hole going into the motor's innards.

Having thoroughly degreased this beast, I found the access plate on motor bottom and pulled screws and have it opened up. Wires inside are only marginally less ugly than the external leads. Colors make no rhyme or reason to me, and I cannot find a schematic that shows how this motor is "supposed" to be wired.
Compounding my increasing confusion is the drum switch I had been supposed to install to act as a controller for direction of travel! NO CLUE how that thing is supposed to be wired into the three wires present at my motor. All diagrams I have found show at least six wires, and I simply don't have them, nor can I tell where they might be supposed to go inside this motor.
I have a few photos, and one diagram for that infernal drum switch. Will try to attach them here.

If this query works, I would greatly appreciate any help for a pure novice in getting this thing operational again. If I can make it work, I can get it sold and out of my yard!

2014-10-20_001446_drum_switch_ebay_60_amp.jpg IMG_0152.JPG IMG_0153.JPG
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,043
To reverse direction interchange red and black
reversing the connections of red (actually dirty white) and black wires makes no difference in the direction of rotation.
The red and black wires in the first quote are referring to the wires in the connection port, not the wires in the second quote, that are from the 'cord' or power source.

To make the switch work you need to bring those red and black wires out to the switch, and then back into the connection port.

Google gets many hits and even videos to look at. https://www.google.com/search?q=wire+a+single+phase+drum+switch&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
 

Thread Starter

halfpint23

Joined Dec 2, 2017
9
The red and black wires in the first quote are referring to the wires in the connection port, not the wires in the second quote, that are from the 'cord' or power source.

To make the switch work you need to bring those red and black wires out to the switch, and then back into the connection port.

Google gets many hits and even videos to look at. https://www.google.com/search?q=wire+a+single+phase+drum+switch&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
Thank you Shortbus - though I think I may need to co-opt your handle, as I am the one who should be riding the electronics short bus for this conversation!
I got the board cleaned up better, it kind of quit pouring rain down my back so was able to hose it with contact cleaner and get after the nooks and crannies with an acid brush. Still not finding any markings at all that are for any of the wires used. Whatever. I have this machine tied down on its side on a trailer so I can access the motor. It's still a literal pain in the neck.
Is there an actual wire color standard for motors? I am still looking at the "line black hooked to yellow" and "line white hooked to blue???" thing and getting turned around. It may be more clear if I take the pigtail (supply) wires OFF and can see if/what they actually connect to.
The switch itself makes absolutely no sense at all to me. The hing has metal jumper strips on both sides, which make hooking a wire at one point shoot power off to someplace else. The diagram with three views of the green box is the actual switch I have to work with.

I am not wired (brain wise) to do electronics - I can rebuild a Carter AFB blindfolded, but can't wire a two-way light circuit, so please bear with me. Telling me to "bring the red and black wires out to the switch" may as well be greek. There are six available connections in this switch, and I am not sure where to put the incoming line power! just for starters.
 

Attachments

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,043
Do you have the wiring port cover? Most times there is a paper label on the inside of he cover showing a schematic of how it's wired. To try to do this with so many miles and time between us is very hard for me to make myself clear. The link to how to wire a drum switch show what is needed. On a new out of the box drum switch some changes have to be made to it. Those are either removal or rearranging some the jumper links in it. They are made to be used many different ways in many situations, a 'universal switch' if you will. It's up to the end user to wire/configure correctly for their application.

Ultimately there will end up being many wires going between the switch and motor, not just the hot, neutral and ground that would be if it just had a cord to the wall plug. Besides those you will need 4 more wires. One each for the red and black wires coming from inside the motor to the switch. And two more going from the switch back to the terminals those red and black wires would connect to in the motor. The changing physically of the red and black wires then takes place in the drum switch, to change the direction of the motor .
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,043
@ halfpint23 Don't know if your still here but, had a little free time last night and made a sketch of what you wanting. If you need any more clarification just ask. I didn't know what was written on all of the spade terminals in the wiring port so tried to do the best with what I had. Just make sure that you use wire that is at least the same gauge as what is already used within the wire port, the existing wire coming out from the winding's/stator.

switch motor133.jpg
 

Thread Starter

halfpint23

Joined Dec 2, 2017
9
@ halfpint23 Don't know if your still here but, had a little free time last night and made a sketch of what you wanting. If you need any more clarification just ask. I didn't know what was written on all of the spade terminals in the wiring port so tried to do the best with what I had. Just make sure that you use wire that is at least the same gauge as what is already used within the wire port, the existing wire coming out from the winding's/stator.

View attachment 140957
You are a gem :)
Sorry for lag, I had an interesting occurrence today, a fried (roasted) mouse between main lugs of my house power panel..... Husband woke me up saying he "smelled hot wiring". Main 200A breaker was way too warm, so I pulled the plate - a not-quite-short via mouse carcass, and the right hand side incoming lead was too hot to touch. Thank God for main disconnects...

I thank you so much for the diagram to wire in the switch for the Dayton motor - HOWEVER, the drum switch has only two banks of terminals - one per side, center position of the handle is off. Attached photos of both sides of the switch body, showing the jumper tabs.IMG_0180.JPG IMG_0179.JPG

I see no labeling at all on the motor wiring port that associates with existing wiring. any label that may have been on inside of the cover plate is long gone.
There are a couple of markings that point (literally, character in an arrow) to slots in the plastic that look empty. The spade terminals may be attached under those lugs the supply wires are attached to.

IMG_0166.JPG

Now that I have a real good set of photos to remind me of where I started out, I am going out to remove the old decayed wires and take another couple of photos of what may or may not be hidden under them.
I will report back once I have this looked at more closely.
Thanks again Shortbus, I really appreciate your kindness!
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,043
The plastic wire panel in the motor wire port will have numbers molded into it, next to the spade terminals. A shot showing them would be a big help. The spade terminals I was talking about are the ones sticking up from the plastic wire plate.

Do you have a part number for the switch, or a online link? Without having it in front of me it is hard to understand how it is working. There are many different configurations of drum switches, but they should come with a schematic of how to wire it. The switch is a forward/reverse type isn't it? I ask because some aren't.
 

Thread Starter

halfpint23

Joined Dec 2, 2017
9
was blk on ylw_0184.JPG
The plastic wire panel in the motor wire port will have numbers molded into it, next to the spade terminals. A shot showing them would be a big help. The spade terminals I was talking about are the ones sticking up from the plastic wire plate.

Do you have a part number for the switch, or a online link? Without having it in front of me it is hard to understand how it is working. There are many different configurations of drum switches, but they should come with a schematic of how to wire it. The switch is a forward/reverse type isn't it? I ask because some aren't.

(hope online links are allowed) online link to where I got the switch from: The picture is all the documentation they sent (insert rolling eyeball thing)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/60-Amp-Dru...:ykcAAOSwNJ5Ze6y3:sc:USPSPriority!98272!US!-1

pic I just took of the motor terminal panel, with the ugly pigtail wires removed. The white line wire was attached to the lug the blue motor wire occupies. The black line wire was attached to lug the yellow motor wire occupies. Green (GND) line wire was on case screw head at edge of case. The black motor wire on spade terminal is not attached to the blue wire's lug - unless it is attached BEHIND that plastic panel. Need to find my little meter and see if I can check continuity....
The panel markings are making no sense, as they do not point to nor correlate to anything that is currently connected.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,043
Hi, I can work with that. Will try to do this evening, but if not tomorrow. So don't panic if it isn't here, we will get it working. :)
 

LesJones

Joined Jan 8, 2017
2,726
I have found some information on the web that should help to sort out the problem. The connection plate on your motor looks similar to yours. Both diagrams show that red and black (From inside the motor are the start winding and blue and yellow are the main winding. I think the centrifugal switch contacts are between terminal 2 and push on connector A (or maybe 4). Can you confirm that the red and black (From inside the motor.) connect to the connector block with spade connectors ? If this is the case disconnect the red and black and measure the resistance between the ends. Also with them disconnected measure the resistance between the yellow and blue. These readings should be less than 20 ohms. The blue and yellow (Main winding ) should have a lower resistance than the the black and red. (Main winding.) Check that there is no continuity between the two windings. (Use an insulation tester (Megger.) if you have access to one.) These are the two web page URLs
http://money-cpm.com/dayton-gear-motor-wiring-diagram.html
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/ac-gearmotor-wiring-help-26872/
The picture in the first one is very poor but you will probably get better information if you are prepared to register.

Les.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,043
@halfpint23 , had time to make a couple of sketches using what you posted. Like I said earlier, you need to get some wire that is at least the same gauge as what is used inside the wiring port, and it has to be multi strand type, not solid like house wiring. It would also make it easier if you bought some spade connectors to fit the wire. This is the style you want, but you need both male and female. https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/9672909/00263?quantity=1
I showed Pep Boys but usually any auto parts store will have both the connectors and even wire, just get both in the right gauge. Wire color isn't important, as long as you connect as shown.

Here are the sketches -switch motor135.jpg switch motor136.jpg

Where I said in the last sketch to ,"disconnect wire and run to switch", that means to use a male terminal end and plug it into the female end on the wire coming out from the inside of the motor and run that wire to the switch. Be sure to tape the joint with electrical tap also.

Where I said, "new wire from switch", put a female connector on that wire and connect to the male terminal on the plastic wire board.

Both the white and black power wires get a female connector and got to the corresponding male terminal on the plastic wire board.

If you have anymore questions just ask, and I'll try to help.
 

Thread Starter

halfpint23

Joined Dec 2, 2017
9
I have found some information on the web that should help to sort out the problem. The connection plate on your motor looks similar to yours. Both diagrams show that red and black (From inside the motor are the start winding and blue and yellow are the main winding. I think the centrifugal switch contacts are between terminal 2 and push on connector A (or maybe 4). Can you confirm that the red and black (From inside the motor.) connect to the connector block with spade connectors ? If this is the case disconnect the red and black and measure the resistance between the ends. Also with them disconnected measure the resistance between the yellow and blue. These readings should be less than 20 ohms. The blue and yellow (Main winding ) should have a lower resistance than the the black and red. (Main winding.) Check that there is no continuity between the two windings. (Use an insulation tester (Megger.) if you have access to one.) These are the two web page URLs

http://money-cpm.com/dayton-gear-motor-wiring-diagram.html
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/ac-gearmotor-wiring-help-26872/
The picture in the first one is very poor but you will probably get better information if you are prepared to register.

Les.
THanks for the input Les Jones!
Yes both black and red motor wires are spade terminals (female flag terminals that connect to spade males to be more exact). They are definitely motor windings - and when I put power to them INDEPENDENT OF THE BOARD CONNECTIONS I could, indeed, get reverse direction form the motor by swapping my black and white line leads between red and black motor leads.

Compounding my already significant confusion is that NO WAY can I change the blue and yellow wires - they are somehow related to the impressively powerful electromagnetic brake that stops the whole works when power is cut off. I can hear a distinct clunk in the case like a heavy relay a split second after power is applied or removed, which I am assuming has to do with that big magnet. You can put power to the blue and yellow independent of the red/black circuit, but the magnet doesn't release and the motor hums loudly - so I instantly cut the juice.

Being able to reverse the motor is a big step forward. Not to figure out switching.

Of the two links you so kindly provided, the first shunts over to a gaming consortium - not the money-cpm site. So, no go there! I recognize the sketch in the thumbnail, though, it is one I found and saved from another source - more confusion.
The second link to DIY site does have a couple of similar things, but newer motors etc and a whole bunch more wire colors - not going to work on my dinosaur Dayton, I'm afraid.

I see that Shortbus has come up with a sketch for the motor controller info I gave earlier - looks like it will be worth a try. I have about another week of "not torrential downpour" to get this going, wish me luck! and thanks again for your input.

Kate
 

Thread Starter

halfpint23

Joined Dec 2, 2017
9
@halfpint23 , had time to make a couple of sketches using what you posted. Like I said earlier, you need to get some wire that is at least the same gauge as what is used inside the wiring port, and it has to be multi strand type, not solid like house wiring. It would also make it easier if you bought some spade connectors to fit the wire. This is the style you want, but you need both male and female. https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/9672909/00263?quantity=1
I showed Pep Boys but usually any auto parts store will have both the connectors and even wire, just get both in the right gauge. Wire color isn't important, as long as you connect as shown.

Here are the sketches -View attachment 141053 View attachment 141054
Where I said in the last sketch to ,"disconnect wire and run to switch", that means to use a male terminal end and plug it into the female end on the wire coming out from the inside of the motor and run that wire to the switch. Be sure to tape the joint with electrical tap also.

Where I said, "new wire from switch", put a female connector on that wire and connect to the male terminal on the plastic wire board.

Both the white and black power wires get a female connector and got to the corresponding male terminal on the plastic wire board.

If you have anymore questions just ask, and I'll try to help.
Wow, that looks like I may be able to do it! :)
I did get the motor reversing. Pulled those flag terminals off, hooked my test leads to it, and got both directions by reversing the leads. Good to start.
I have oodles of marine grade wire in many sizes - I do a lot of trailer and automotive wire repairs around here, so have a backlog of good wire in many colors. Actually have a three foot chunk of 10ga stranded cable in a good sheath to use for my external lead from power switch to reversing controller and then to motor, as this "should" be weatherproof.
All 3 places I checked on way home from Dr today did NOT have flag terminals (which I must use to fit under the cover plate) so I'm off to make an online purchase tonight.
My power wires originally went to the bolt (lug) terminals, not spade connectors, so I will ring terminal my line wires to those again - it was white (common?) to the blue wire's lug and black (hot?) to the yellow wire's lug, with green ground to motor case.

I see your diagram has the line black going to the switch, breaking to pick up from other pole of switch and then to motor board terminal. I am assuming that the white line wire and the green ground bypasses the switch entirely? going straight to the motor board terminal? Switch housing is all plastic so should not require a ground there. I hope, as no obvious ground lug exists on this switch.
 

LesJones

Joined Jan 8, 2017
2,726
Now we have confirmed that the motor is wired more or less the same as in the diagram from the web we know how to wire the switch. (Which is basically what shortbus suggested in post #5) This picture is the way the motor is connected now. It may not have a centrifugal switch but that does not change the way it needs to be wired.

091217A.jpg



This picture is how it needs to be connected.
091217b.jpg

I don't know if you know how to test the reversing switch and wire it to the schematic. If not myself or shortbus will be able to help. All the contacts used on the switch must be open when it is in the central off position. You will need some connector blocks to connect the blue and yellow wires from the main winding to the wired going to the switch.

Les.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,043
All 3 places I checked on way home from Dr today did NOT have flag terminals (which I must use to fit under the cover plate) so I'm off to make an online purchase tonight.
As I didn't know what kind of stores there are in your area, i pick Pep Boys because they are Clif. based. For future projects, if your area has Ace Hardware stores, they usually have a good selection of wire terminals and other useful things. You mentioned you work on cars, and they have grade 8 bolts and other car fasteners. Or at least they do in my area.

I see your diagram has the line black going to the switch, breaking to pick up from other pole of switch and then to motor board terminal. I am assuming that the white line wire and the green ground bypasses the switch entirely? going straight to the motor board terminal? Switch housing is all plastic so should not require a ground there. I hope, as no obvious ground lug exists on this switch.
Yes the black 'hot' wire goes through the switch. But ground(green) and neutral(white) don't. Just like in a house light switch. It's done that way so even with the item turned off, there is always a path to ground.

My power wires originally went to the bolt (lug) terminals, not spade connectors, so I will ring terminal my line wires to those again - it was white (common?) to the blue wire's lug and black (hot?) to the yellow wire's lug, with green ground to motor case.
Didn't realize that the blue and yellow wires went to a brake, it was never mentioned before. If the hot and neutral where originally under the nuts that's where to put them. Same with the wires to the brake.

@halfpint23, when you didn't post back I was worried you were in the wildfire area. Glad to see you back.
 

Thread Starter

halfpint23

Joined Dec 2, 2017
9
Didn't realize that the blue and yellow wires went to a brake, it was never mentioned before. If the hot and neutral where originally under the nuts that's where to put them. Same with the wires to the brake.

@halfpint23, when you didn't post back I was worried you were in the wildfire area. Glad to see you back.
I didn't think much about the electromagnet brake, as it is unclear to me what wires may control it - I only know that it does work, but only when the black/red leads are energized; the blue/yellow incoming power leads don't release it.

No, we are in the NW corner of WA state - the wet side. I do have friends in California, however, it has been a hellish summer down there, and across the western ranch country for that matter. The rest of the US has no clue how bad it has been for the people who produce their groceries.....
But I digress.
I found ONE pack of four flag terminals in the entire city of Monroe.... but that is enough to get the job done and those wires out of the motor case. Tomorrow I hope to get some of the harness completed and ready to put in. On a horse farm there is always plenty to do and a shortage of hours to do "other stuff".

Have to create a mounting board for the main shutoff switchbox and the drum switch, as the machine itself has no place to mount anything inside the housing. I figure originally it must have been just scabbed together on an underground line without benefit of any sort of thought process. Probably why it shocked the owner and her horses and she dumped it! As dumb as I feel on a lot of this electrical business, at least I have the sense to worry about proper grounding! Will have to get a photo of the thing to post- it's pretty ugly.

Not nearly as ugly as the mouse that darn near burned the house a few days ago....IMG_0177.jpg
Had to extricate the little bugger with needle nosed pliers (HUGE YUUUUGE yuck factor) as he was just about dried enough to combust.
 

Thread Starter

halfpint23

Joined Dec 2, 2017
9
@halfpint23 , had time to make a couple of sketches using what you posted. snip>
Here are the sketches -View attachment 141053 View attachment 141054

Where I said in the last sketch to ,"disconnect wire and run to switch", that means to use a male terminal end and plug it into the female end on the wire coming out from the inside of the motor and run that wire to the switch. Be sure to tape the joint with electrical tap also.

Where I said, "new wire from switch", put a female connector on that wire and connect to the male terminal on the plastic wire board.

Both the white and black power wires get a female connector and go to the corresponding male terminal on the plastic wire board.

If you have anymore questions just ask, and I'll try to help.
Shortbus for the win!
After hassling to get a mounting board installed, I got the main disconnect box (actually a breaker box) mounted and pigtailed, and have good three-wire cable out of it ready to put connectors on and hook up that drum switch. I decided to be smart - took some lengths of black and red wire and hooked up the drum switch just as your sketch shows on the image - and it WORKS. PERFECTLY.
I ran out of daylight, but tomorrow will be able to put permanent wiring in for the drum switch and have this machine ready to go find a new home. I will take a few pics so you can see how it worked out!

Thank you so much for your kindness and patience - I am certain I could not have gotten this thing figured out otherwise.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,043
I didn't think much about the electromagnet brake, as it is unclear to me what wires may control it - I only know that it does work, but only when the black/red leads are energized; the blue/yellow incoming power leads don't release it.
First, glad I could walk you through it.

Second, glad your not in the wildfire danger. Saw on the news a horse farm/stable releasing horses and thought you might be in the same situation.

Now to my take on how the brake is set up. It probably is in the on/set condition when there is no power to the motor. To keep the "walker" from moving when not wanted. Then when the motor is powered up it energizes the brake to release it. Just the opposite of how the brakes work on a horse trailer.
 
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