Black Holes

Thread Starter

Brainteaser

Joined Dec 26, 2007
8
According to scientists latest research if something goes inside the black hole its mass is destroyed.But according to law of conservation of mass "mass is neither created nor destroyed but it changes from one form to another".In the black hole mass is only destroyed it cancels the Law.How can it be?:confused: i also have one more question.What happens when something goes in the black hole?
 

beenthere

Joined Apr 20, 2004
15,819
The mass is not destroyed, but removed from the observable universe. Black holes get their character from the acquisition of mass. The additional mass just makes them "blacker", in the sense that the gravitational radius gets larger.
 

bloguetronica

Joined Apr 27, 2007
1,541
The mass is not destroyed, but removed from the observable universe. Black holes get their character from the acquisition of mass. The additional mass just makes them "blacker", in the sense that the gravitational radius gets larger.
Indeed. But some of it is ejected, and some other is emitted a form of energy known as the Hawkins radiation. Nevertheless, the mass that it is absorbed doesn't cease to exist. As beenthere said, it is now part of the black hole itself. A black hole is nothing more than a chunk of super concentrated mass. Think of it as giant nucleus, since the force of gravity is so massive that overcame the repulsive forces created by the surrounding electrons of the individual atoms.
 

Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,969
But doesn't the rules of relativity and quantum mechanics breakdown at the event horizon? Therefore in essence why should the conservation of energy hold? I'm not saying it doesn't just posing a conjecture.

Dave
 

jonkopp

Joined Jan 17, 2008
15
I don't think that anyone can make anything more than an educated guess as to what happens past the event horizon. The internals are unobservable, therefore only the external symptoms of the system can be used to decern data on what is happening. Nothing observable suggests that any laws are being broken. Stuff goes in, it gets really small, this causes the total system's effective field to increase. The system jets out super particles and absorbs practically everything else. The system either finds an equalibrium, or it dies a dramatic death. I don't see where the scientist find the BreakDown.
 

jonkopp

Joined Jan 17, 2008
15
But the particles are approaching zero mass, which means it never achieves zero. So the outcome would be that the values would be approaching infinite, but not necessarily achieving it. So I could see that we could have a resolution issue in our math systems, but I don't think these questions contain impossibles.
 

Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,969
But the particles are approaching zero mass, which means it never achieves zero. So the outcome would be that the values would be approaching infinite, but not necessarily achieving it. So I could see that we could have a resolution issue in our math systems, but I don't think these questions contain impossibles.
You're probably right. From what I remember from my musings of this subject, many moons ago, was that at the singularity there were infinities which rendered the equations unsolvable - in essence a mathematical breakdown at the event horizon of the mathematics underpinning classical physics (Relativity and quantum).

Dave
 

uzair

Joined Dec 26, 2007
110
Anyone has not actually seen that "black hole".I think that all of them are assumptions and no authentic experimental data has not yet been collected.Right?

But as they say,"Imagination is more important than anything else", so we can look upto the scientists for further analysis.
 

Thread Starter

Brainteaser

Joined Dec 26, 2007
8
I got an answer from another site.A scientisit who himself is researching on black holes gave this answer.It says that there is another hole called white hole.The white is just opposite to black i.e. black hole sucks things inside and white hole spits things out.If something goes in the black hole it starts travelling from black hole to white hole with ultra fast speed in the form of energy.And after about a thousand years it gets out of the white hole.

If Black hole=B and White hole=W

than it will be like this,

>B>==========>W>





From the wikipedia article...
"The law of mass/matter conservation may be considered as an approximate physical law that holds only in the classical sense before the advent of special relativity and quantum mechanics."

Read up son!
Read up grandpa!The classiacal law is still in one piece.
 

thingmaker3

Joined May 16, 2005
5,083
Whey you call Papabravo "grandpa," you mean to compliment him on his wisdom and knowledge gained through years of hard work, yes? It is a term of endearment and respect, I trust?
 

Thread Starter

Brainteaser

Joined Dec 26, 2007
8
I called papabravo grandpa because:

1)My friend who is also a member of this site told me that papabravo is of my grandpa's age.

2)Due to respect.

3)Calling someone grandpa isnt a bad thing.



And about identifying the scientist i dont know about his real name or something else. The only thing i know about him is that he lives in USA his username is blackmars and he says he is a scientist.
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
21,157
...
Read up grandpa!The classiacal law is still in one piece.
You are quite correct that classical physics still works. It breaks down at high speeds, small scales, and in heavy gravitational fields. All modern theories of physics are required to be consistent with "the classical limit". There is so much stuff to read out there one could make a career out of it. Hmmmm...I guess I have.
 

Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,969
Still haven't heard anything about white holes. Do you have something to share?
Stephen Hawkings discussed them in his review "Black Holes and Thermodynamics" from the late 70s. I think he has become an advocate for the White Hole as a time reversal of the Black Hole and even that they are one and the same in certain quantum conditions.

I know (vaguely) about them through the work of Hawkings.

Dave
 
It may seem like cheating, but you can duck the whole question by adopting the strict positivist point of view. If something is non-observable in principle, then any question you may ask about it is simply a waste of time. This is also the point of view adopted in quantum mechanics. What happens to an electron when it's flipping between quantum states? No way of knowing or even finding out. So the question isn't even asked.
 

Dave

Joined Nov 17, 2003
6,969
I will have to take your word for that. If one goes to Hawkings' website, the text of his public lectures is presented. In the text of his lectures on space and time (1994) (http://www.hawking.org.uk/pdf/time.pdf ) there are 135 instances in which black holes are mentioned and not a single mention of white hole. His lecture on space and time warps does not have a single mention either of white holes (http://www.hawking.org.uk/text/public/warps.html). Finally, his colloquium on gravitational entropy (http://www.hawking.org.uk/text/physics/entropy.html) references his 1970 proposal for black holes, describes mechanisms for radiative loses from rotating black holes (1974), but has no mention of white holes.

Hawkings may have mentioned white holes in passing, maybe as a joke, but if he were truly a proponent of white holes, I would expect some mention of them in his lectures and colloquia, particularly if the theory has been so refined as to establish a 1000-year sojourn of mass in a black hole before being expelled from a white hole.

John
If you can get access see: http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v13/i2/p191_1

He mentions it here.

Dave
 

Thread Starter

Brainteaser

Joined Dec 26, 2007
8
Right now the discovery of white hole is very recent. So it can not be found by searching for "white hole" or by surfing net. I myself was referred to the site where i found cites about white hole.


And i have another question in mind. Everyone says that law of conservation of mass is approximately right. Can i know where and why is it not applied?
 
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