# [VIDEO] Firearms Fundamentals

#### shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,966
I used to shoot .22 crimp blanks with a Crossman .22 pellet. It would penetrate about 1" into a 2x4. Good rat round.
I had one of those "starter pistol" that you could buy almost any where back in the 1960's. Took it and opened up the cylinder so it would accept .22 pellets. Most of the pellets would get stuck in the barrel because the nose of them were too thin. So then we started pushing a .177 pellet into a .22 pellet base to reinforce them, they always made it out the barrel.

Then there were the ZIP guns.....

Joined Jan 15, 2015
6,216
Then there were the ZIP guns.....
Yeah and thinking we won't go there
Latest reporting is there was a live round at least one, on the set. When fired by Baldwin it went through the woman's body killing her and into the man. It wasn't a regular "prop" gun that has a cylinder restriction to not allow live ammo to be loaded, but a standard gun.

The movie set has, they say, had problems with that gun, so much so that the union workers walked off the set, and it was non union people working. They also claim that the same gun had 3 unintended discharges in the last week.
I caught part of that on the morning news. I now see more questions than answers. How does a live round of ammunition end up on a movie set? How does someone load a live round in a gun used on a movie set and not know?

Ron

#### SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
3,612
I was using a single shot rifle. Also have a .22 starter pistol but the cylinder is bored only for acorn crimp blanks and barrel is pot metal. I would imagine there would be quite a bit of gas pressure loss in the cylinder to barrel gap with a blank which is usually only the primer in a .22. It is also ported just ahead of the cylinder for gas release upward and barrel is not bored. Boring it out to shoot a .22 LR or even a short would be a catastrophic failure.

#### shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,966
I was using a single shot rifle. Also have a .22 starter pistol but the cylinder is bored only for acorn crimp blanks and barrel is pot metal. I would imagine there would be quite a bit of gas pressure loss in the cylinder to barrel gap with a blank which is usually only the primer in a .22. It is also ported just ahead of the cylinder for gas release upward and barrel is not bored. Boring it out to shoot a .22 LR or even a short would be a catastrophic failure.
That's the new ones, the older ones were totally different. While pot metal the had a drilled barrel with a pin crossways in the bore, it could easily be driven out. Even some of the very small cheap Davis .22/.25 automatic pistols are only pot metal. Or were, my Davis .25 is made out of it.

Joined Jan 15, 2015
6,216
That's the new ones, the older ones were totally different. While pot metal the had a drilled barrel with a pin crossways in the bore, it could easily be driven out. Even some of the very small cheap Davis .22/.25 automatic pistols are only pot metal. Or were, my Davis .25 is made out of it.
Here is a kicker. Back in the early to mid 90s my wife and I owned a small brick and mortar gun shop in Bedford, Ohio. This was before Ohio Law trumped all small town gun laws. Bedford actually had a law which applied to pot metal guns like Bryco, Jennings, Davis and other small pocket .25 ACP and 22 LR guns. Simply put we could not sell them. It was written in such a way it applied to the receiver group of the gun and melting point. Never concerned me as we never carried any of those guns anyway but it was interesting anyway. People liked to dry fire those things and sure as God made little green apples the firing pins would break. Couldn't sell them but I could repair them and kept a pile of those firing pins around. Firing pin cost about $1.50 USD, time to replace about 3 ~ 5 min and I got$10 a gun while they waited. Back then dealer's cost on those guns, the .25 ACP ones, was about $33.33 each or 3 for$100.

Ron

#### SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
3,612
My starter pistol goes back to the 60's. I do have a .22 Jennings and after a few boxes of cartridges through it, it is pretty much crap. Far better off with a well made .380.

#### nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
8,906
https://apnews.com/article/entertai...exico-movies-2079a865611116a7301f5d755ac4ca0c
The gun was loaded with live rounds, court records released Friday show. According to the records, the gun was one of three that the film’s armorer had set on a cart outside the wooden structure where a scene was being acted. Assistant director Dave Halls grabbed the gun from the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application.
Whoever brought that gun with live rounds on a movie set should ready to be prosecuted for criminal negligence.

#### shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
8,966

Joined Jan 15, 2015
6,216
That guy, Dave Halls has a bad reputation and track record. He actually told Baldwin the gun was "cold" when he gave it to him. Cold means not loaded at all blanks or otherwise.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ory-unsafe-practices-prop-maker-says-n1282226

While Baldwin will always carry this on him, And part of the blame is on him for not checking the gun, the biggest burden should be felt by Halls.
While I agree wholehearted, few actors are gun savvy. They can point a gun on a set and pull a trigger. The gun savvy inspect the gun making sure it is as it should be and loaded as it is supposed to be. When all is said and done on this I figure there will be plenty of blame to go around. Sort of a perfect storm.

Ron

Joined Jul 18, 2013
23,926
While I agree wholehearted, few actors are gun savvy.
Aaargh...you mean 'The Duke' was faking it ?!!
There goes my memories.

Joined Jan 15, 2015
6,216
Aaargh...you mean 'The Duke' was faking it ?!!
There goes my memories.
Actually a few like John Wayne, Charlton Heston and several others were both collectors and avid shooters. Heston had an incredible collection and was very gun savvy.

Ron

#### nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
8,906
Actually a few like John Wayne, Charlton Heston and several others were both collectors and avid shooters. Heston had an incredible collection and was very gun savvy.

Ron

Joined Jan 15, 2015
6,216
Those days ended for me about a decade ago. I was shooting CMP (originally DCM) matches till about 5 years ago, I really enjoyed those. One nice thing about living here in Ohio is I am close to Camp Perry. I also shoot and have membership to Kelbly's Range which is home to the annual super shoot which is the bench rest community. While I am not a bench rest type I enjoy talking with those guys.

Ron

#### killivolt

Joined Jan 10, 2010
805
Caught that on the morning news. I have fired plenty of blank ammunition in rifle. A downside of USMC Recruiting is funeral details. You went to the armory and drew a M14 and blanks. The M14 used a BFA (Blank Firing Adapter) so the burning gasses, not pushing a bullet down a barrel would hit the gas port and cycle the rifle. Not much to a BFA but they allow a gas operated semi automatic rifle to cycle. Never saw one for the M16 but pretty sure they exist.

Obviously a prop gun can be dangerous as what just happened has happened before. Somewhere I have some .223 Remington blanks around here with the crimp. I also have some pretty neat 7.62 x 39 practice ammo which uses a wood bullet and about 1/2 the powder charge os a standard military round. They won't cycle my SKS but are pretty cool none the less. Pretty sure they are Russian manufacture.

Back to "blanks" for a moment, these guys have a full line of them. Below is an example of a 38 Special Blank.
View attachment 250881

If the prop gun is a real gun using only blanks the user can get an incipient separation in the brass just below the crimp resulting in that piece of separated brass becoming a projectile. While not supposed to work that way it can and does happen.

Ron
Walking down the street one day, a dude passing by me pushed a gun into my rib cage and shot me with a blank gun, he and his friend thought it was funny as I pulled my shirt up to see powder burns and a big welt swelling. They laughed together and turned around kept walking, I ran up behind them, punched the guy with the gun in the back of the head, knocking him to his knees, I took the gun away and pistol whipped him until the police arrived. His friend ran away after I looked him in the face and said your next and continued.

Same side my first wife accidentally stabbed me with a knife, she was cooking bacon on the stove during a heated argument, I was leaving boots in hand it came out of her hand when she was screaming, knife in hand she pushed her forearm forward it left her bacon greased hand and stuck into a rib, thank goodness, just hung there for a second and fell out. Got a 1/2” scar to show for it. lol

I had no idea a blank gun to do that? Of course after you say that, seems possible. Depends on the crimp.

kv

#### strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
5,695
That guy, Dave Halls has a bad reputation and track record. He actually told Baldwin the gun was "cold" when he gave it to him. Cold means not loaded at all blanks or otherwise.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ory-unsafe-practices-prop-maker-says-n1282226

While Baldwin will always carry this on him, And part of the blame is on him for not checking the gun, the biggest burden should be felt by Halls.
The question I had about this story, seems to be one that nobody else is interested in getting answered. How exactly did this happen? I mean I highly doubt Baldwin "was cleaning it and it went off," and if it happened during filming or rehearsal, wouldn't he have shot another actor? Was he screwing around off-set, pointing guns at people and pulling the trigger? That seems the most likely scenario to me, and if it's correct I'm pretty sure there would be serious consequences. I spent half an hour googling and sifting through these stories (all copies of each other) and nobody is asking that. For example:
What we know
• bla
• bla
• bla
What we don’t know
• What type of projectile the gun contained. Bla bla bla
• Who loaded the gun, and who was responsible for the false conclusion that it wasn’t loaded. Bla bla bla
• How the protocols that are supposed to prevent firearm deaths and injuries on film sets failed.
The thin veil that separates the various cogs of the media machine is apparent in the questions it doesn't ask and the stories it doesn't report on.

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#### SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
3,612
That is because most of the media and screen folks are totally clueless about gun handling safety. When we were in school, we were required to take a health class taught by a completely disinterested football coach. It would have been a good place to introduce gun safety. Unfortunately, it also needs to be practiced and not just heard.

Joined Jan 15, 2015
6,216
The question I had about this story, seems to be one that nobody else is interested in getting answered. How exactly did this happen? I mean I highly doubt Baldwin "was cleaning it and it went off," and if it happened during filming or rehearsal, wouldn't he have shot another actor? Was he screwing around off-set, pointing guns at people and pulling the trigger? That seems the most likely scenario to me, and if it's correct I'm pretty sure there would be serious consequences. I spent half an hour googling and sifting through these stories (all copies of each other) and nobody is asking that. For example:

The thin veil that separates the various cogs of the media machine is apparent in the questions it doesn't ask and the stories it doesn't report on.
Eventually your question will be answered. Short of a very infrequent and strange situation a gun won't discharge unless someone discharges it by pulling a trigger. Thus far nothing about the gun has been released. Things like what exactly was the gun? Was it a real gun being used as a prop? Was it the ever popular revolver or was it a semi automatic pistol? About all the morning news had today was the funeral of the woman who was shot and killed. There is more to all of this and till more is released speculation will run wild.

Ron

#### MrSalts

Joined Apr 2, 2020
730

#### strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
5,695
Well, that makes sense. I'm glad it wasn't what I thought. Thanks for the link. What keywords did you use to find it? I wasn't able to find anything giving details like that. Maybe because they simply weren't available yet.

#### SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
3,612
I strongly (maybe wrongly) suspect that Baldwin will get a bye on this one and the blame will lie with whoever loaded the live round into the cylinder. At least that is what the press and movie shills seem to be pushing... Not guilty by reason of stupidity and not by actions. That seems to be the prevalent course of justice in cases of children shooting others with a loaded gun they should not have had access to.