# Tesla X Performance Electric Vehicle

#### MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,984
Hello there,

Yesterday i got the opportunity to ride in a Tesla X Performance with "gull wing" doors. Amazing car all electric. The gull wing doors are not exactly gull wing though, Tesla calls them "Falcon Wing" because unlike other similar doors they pivot in wo places instead of just one. The extra pivot is to allow the doors to open in tight parking spaces. The doors have sensors too so they can detect obstacles and change which pivot pivots more. The door are electric so they open with the push of a button. It's amazing just to see one open up. Price tag $82000 to$130000 USD this one was toward the upper end of that price range. Rides about the same as a regular gas car dont notice any difference but the car itself looks really awesome.

Charging stations are a bit of a problem though in this state (NJ). Not that many around and the ones that are around are not very well taken care of. Cables lying on the ground thrown all about. One station near me (about 2 miles) has a charger but does not work and it's been like that for the past two years. Not that motivation i guess to get the stations going. In California (i visit now and then) some of the stations have the cables cut and the wires (large weight copper) are not even stolen. It's like someone or some group is trying to prevent the proliferation of electric vehicles. Some cables are stolen though.

I guess for my self i am divided on the widespread use of electric vehicles mainly because of the charging requirements there are some serious issues. The main one is peak power during the charge process. People dont want to wait 6 hours to charge their battery they want it fast, and at a charging station they can do it in around 1/2 hour. But due to the size of the batteries, it takes a very large peak electric power to charge that fast. I havent run the numbers yet, but i think it is equivalent to about half a house total electric input power with lots of appliances turned on. If there are several chargers at one station, that could mean it takes the power equivalent to several normal households in a small real estate area. With the power grid in this country being what it is, old and not very good, i see a problem coming up as more and more electric vehicles are sold and operated. The grid has to be updated. This has been talked about many times by the current administration but i dont see anything done yet on infrastructure. In California they are already predicting rolling blackouts. I guess time will tell as this relatively new technology evolves. One thing is undeniable though, those Tesla cars are amazingly amazing
Oh, and one important feature: No OBDII because there are no emissions!

#### Ya’akov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
5,659
Electric doors... Brilliant.

#### MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,984
Electric doors... Brilliant.

Wow that poor car. Wonder what started that fire.

#### SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,194
because there are no emissions!
Of course there are emissions. Just how do you think that electricity is generated? Not to mention the manufacturing of all of the vehicle components. Now they are telling us that vehicle tires generate more emissions than the tailpipes do... And just why are they giving electricity away at charging stations for free when I'm paying upwards of 4USD for gasoline. It's kinda like the Wizard of Oz, someone needs to look behind the curtain!

#### SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,194
Wonder what started that fire
Li-Ion batteries are notorious for self-ignition... This is why the FAA bans them on planes. Remember all the stories of smartphones self-igniting in the pockets of users. Soon we will have to deal with Li-ion disposal as the wonderful new batteries wear out. Betcha it costs more to replace a Tesla's batteries than to rebuild the engine on a Rolls Royce or Ferrari. My son bought his Tesla last year after his company issued their IPO and is still waiting for delivery sometime this fall now, maybe.

#### ApacheKid

Joined Jan 12, 2015
688
Steer (no pun intended) clear of these cars, they are accident's waiting to happen and having a man like Musk running the show gives me no confidence in the product really.

Seriously, they are death traps, the complexity of the systems is such that scenarios can arise that lead to undesirable behaviors that can lead to death, I'm a software engineer and would never trust a car that relies on software from a firm like Tesla.

Over 11,000 Teslas Just Got Recalled Because Of A Dangerous Software Bug.

The admiration I see among the public for Tesla's and Musk himself beggars belief, how can so many people be so gullible? I guess there is just a gadget obsessed mentality out there.

#### justtrying

Joined Mar 9, 2011
435
Steer (no pun intended) clear of these cars, they are accident's waiting to happen and having a man like Musk running the show gives me no confidence in the product really.

Seriously, they are death traps, the complexity of the systems is such that scenarios can arise that lead to undesirable behaviors that can lead to death, I'm a software engineer and would never trust a car that relies on software from a firm like Tesla.

Over 11,000 Teslas Just Got Recalled Because Of A Dangerous Software Bug.

The admiration I see among the public for Tesla's and Musk himself beggars belief, how can so many people be so gullible? I guess there is just a gadget obsessed mentality out there.
It is a personality cult. I am also impressed that he has managed to keep it going for so long.

There is a Tesla on a small island where I service equipment (up in northern BC). Power on that island comes from diesel fuel... Their vehicle is completely unservicable there also. I find there is no point into discussing batteries and issues with those with most people. I am well aware of the issues as I work in a hospital. This is actually another area where you see how bad software is as a whole. There is no product where I would trust software, I have seen too many things go wrong...

#### MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,984
Of course there are emissions. Just how do you think that electricity is generated? Not to mention the manufacturing of all of the vehicle components. Now they are telling us that vehicle tires generate more emissions than the tailpipes do... And just why are they giving electricity away at charging stations for free when I'm paying upwards of 4USD for gasoline. It's kinda like the Wizard of Oz, someone needs to look behind the curtain!
Hello there,

Well they say to buy the special tires now to help prevent problems with the tires. Amazing how something so unusual can develop from what seems like good technology.
But when i said emissions i meant from the point of view of the user. They dont have to go to inspection in this state because there is no emission system. That would be a huge benefit for me for example.

The charging stations around here charge money to charge, like 15 dollars or more.

#### MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,984
Li-Ion batteries are notorious for self-ignition... This is why the FAA bans them on planes. Remember all the stories of smartphones self-igniting in the pockets of users. Soon we will have to deal with Li-ion disposal as the wonderful new batteries wear out. Betcha it costs more to replace a Tesla's batteries than to rebuild the engine on a Rolls Royce or Ferrari. My son bought his Tesla last year after his company issued their IPO and is still waiting for delivery sometime this fall now, maybe.
Yeah believe me i know about the Li-ion problem. But almost everybody has one now in their cell phone.
DIdnt know there was such a huge delay in ordering.
The battery pack for a Tesla runs between 12k and 20k US Dollars. That'a a hefty price tag. Tesla claims 500k miles on a battery pack.
I also red about something going wrong with the battery pack making it unusable. 15k down the drain to buy a new one.
I also wonder who services these cars?

#### MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,984
Steer (no pun intended) clear of these cars, they are accident's waiting to happen and having a man like Musk running the show gives me no confidence in the product really.

Seriously, they are death traps, the complexity of the systems is such that scenarios can arise that lead to undesirable behaviors that can lead to death, I'm a software engineer and would never trust a car that relies on software from a firm like Tesla.

Over 11,000 Teslas Just Got Recalled Because Of A Dangerous Software Bug.

The admiration I see among the public for Tesla's and Musk himself beggars belief, how can so many people be so gullible? I guess there is just a gadget obsessed mentality out there.
I think it is the beauty of the vehicle that draws you in. They are really amazing cars when they work right.

#### MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,984
It is a personality cult. I am also impressed that he has managed to keep it going for so long.

There is a Tesla on a small island where I service equipment (up in northern BC). Power on that island comes from diesel fuel... Their vehicle is completely unservicable there also. I find there is no point into discussing batteries and issues with those with most people. I am well aware of the issues as I work in a hospital. This is actually another area where you see how bad software is as a whole. There is no product where I would trust software, I have seen too many things go wrong...
Hi,

Yes even the moon landing vehicle had a bug in the software they had to work around to get home.
Yes software fails too often because usually there are so many things that were not thought of that could happen and they are always negative.

#### ApacheKid

Joined Jan 12, 2015
688
I think it is the beauty of the vehicle that draws you in. They are really amazing cars when they work right.
I'm sure there's a lot of truth to that, I don't doubt it. But the modern world of "gadgets" is obsessed with presentation, appearances, cosmetics. Take the iPhone, mine often frustrates me, its behavior is sometimes non-intuitive, there are scenarios where one can get several notifications, attend to one and lose sight of the fact there were more and so on.

Yes the phones are often described as "beautiful" and similar metaphors, this is likely because Steve Jobs knew jack \$h1t about software, most of what he said about computers (even right back to the Apple II days) was primarily about cosmetics, presentation and so on (much of their later software was in fact copied from Rank Xerox, based on their work and research - the GUI, a mouse and so on).

Musk likewise knows little about software or electronics, this guy had the audacity to say stuff like this:

Musk told the FT that Bezos has a "reasonably good engineering aptitude,"
Yet Bezos completed a degree in Electrical Engineering whereas Musk has a degree in Physics which is not engineering, he's unfit to judge the skill of someone else.

#### jgessling

Joined Jul 31, 2009
82
What a bunch of negativity! I suspect just a group of old timers who never have trusted computers. Software? That’s never going to be dependable! Our Tesla model 3 runs fine and there is no reason to think that it won’t continue. The rest of you can keep complaining about gas prices and never do anything about it. See you on the freeway!

#### ApacheKid

Joined Jan 12, 2015
688
What a bunch of negativity! I suspect just a group of old timers who never have trusted computers. Software? That’s never going to be dependable! Our Tesla model 3 runs fine and there is no reason to think that it won’t continue. The rest of you can keep complaining about gas prices and never do anything about it. See you on the freeway!
Just to be clear I don't complain about gas prices nor does that have anything to do with my opinion of Musk and his junk software, my opinion is based on many examples of inexcusable, abysmal software quality, entrusting my life or family member's life to his junkware is not something I'd ever do or boast of doing.

and last but by no means least:

https://youtu.be/LMWwImDX3ks

and on and on and on it goes - none, not a single one of these examples surprises me in the slightest, I am absolutely confident in my assessment that the product is junk dressed up as glamor.

I have a 2014 Jeep Wrangler, it works, its simple, has few frills and it works. It never refuses to start it works, it never acts like a calculator having a tantrum, it just works oh and did I say, it works? Cars like Tesla are hugely over rated, the company knows jack about software, a guy like Musk just wants everything yesterday and that's likely why the car sucks.

The core issue here is that the software is untestable, the number of states that any single car's electronics and processors can get into is more or less infinite and so only restricted, limited testing is possible. Some states are never tested because the team will believe (but likely can't prove) that the state cannot ever arise in practice but if it can...

if there's a bug that manifests in some uncommon state then it will never be picked up unless that state is included in the tests and if it isn't it will manifest as and when some individual vehicle gets into the relevant state and that could end up killing you or someone else.

Last edited:

#### MrAl

Joined Jun 17, 2014
8,984
So i guess there are a lot of people who dont like Teslas.
I am a bit squeamish when it comes to Li-ion and related batteries too but it appears that we have no choice now we have to live with them just like we have to live with software which is nuts sometimes.

The problem i think is there is never a backup plan. If you have something that can fail you need a backup plan. Apparently the Teslas dont have that and most software has minimal work around solutions like "reboot".
So what we need is a backup plan for stuff so that we might get through an emergency, just like with food and water.

#### Ya’akov

Joined Jan 27, 2019
5,659
The general problem with electric cars is, as things stands, while they don’t have a tailpipe to pollute with, they do a great of polluting on the front end due to manufacturing and in an ongoing way as the electricity they need it generated. Like all devices they are far from 100% efficient and so some percentage of the emissions is the result of losses, effectively increasing the emissions-cost by that much as well.

When electric vehicles are compared to ICE versions, the electrics fail to reduce net emissions over the lifetime of the two vehicles. So, the Tesla, for example is a short range, poorly supported (infrastructure), dangerous alternative to an ICE car that costs more and doesn’t reduce emissions.

But the news is not all bad. There is an existing alternative to both that is available now, for a reasonable cost and with some of the advantages of each: hybrids. A hybrid has reduced emissions, sufficient range, works with the current infrastructure, and has no unique dangers.

Eventual transition to pure electrics is probably inevitable but the current state of the technology involved, and the infrastructure needed, as well as the cost, favor hybrids until those things change.

#### SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,194
Yes well, even the internal combustion engines being sold today don't run without software or at least firmware. In fact, most of my home appliances also have it to operate on. And even Henry Ford didn't start out making Shelby GT Mustangs.

#### Ian0

Joined Aug 7, 2020
5,103
I think it is the beauty of the vehicle that draws you in.
Because they look like Jaguars.
But why Has every electric vehicle manufacturer except Tesla taken the opportunity to design something really ugly?
If you look at power consumption figures, you will see that it is directly proportional to height, and it seems only Tesla has managed to make a car under 1500mm tall.
But one thing I really don’t like: it looks like they forgot it needed a dashboard, and bodged an iPad in the centre console when they realised.