I'm curious to know in what cases a simulation can provide a misrepresentation of how a circuit will work.
Despite part variances, what are other sources for error in a sim?
Despite part variances, what are other sources for error in a sim?
All the time. The accuracy is limited by the quality of the "models" of the components which make up the sim. In any case where there is high speed switching or bandwidth and stability criteria, sims were NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate. The designers who used sims to the exclusion of actual bench data were and are fools..... who generated a lot of work for me and others who had to clean up their mess. Sims are useful for specific purposes but many people incorrectly believe they can replace actual bench testing of a prototype and they go directly to production with disastrous results.I'm curious to know in what cases a simulation can provide a misrepresentation of how a circuit will work.
Any higher frequency performanceCan you give me some examples of when it is not right
Any higher frequency performance
switching circuitry
circuitry operating at lower voltages near their minimum operating range
that's one of things they are good for. In IC design they are useful for seeing effects of varying process parameters in a qualitative way, not quantitative.Simulators are also very useful for easily trying different design approaches and testing the effect of part's tolerance limits circuit operation.
Exactly as I always explained to my boss. You get your choice of two design procedures:Once you have the design optimized with a simulator you still need to build it in a breadboard, of course,
Pencil & paper,& a brain,can do all that!Simulators let you quickly see if your circuit works, and they let you see the effects of changing parameters so that you get an intuitive feel for how your circuit works. That is the service that simulator designers are trying to provide.
Do you still need to breadboard your circuit to verify it works? I'd bet my career on it.
However, spice models are only as good as you make them! System level parasitics are not modeled inherently in any simulator I've ever seen, though you can put them in and get an accurate model. Op-amp models are modeled poorly and don't work in corner cases. They usually just consist of the open loop gain and a couple poles. FET models can be way off. I've seen some spice based diode curves be off as much as an order of magnitude!
I guess what I'm trying to say is that simulators are extremely valuable if you know how and why you're using them and their weaknesses. I won't ever go to the lab and breadboard something until I've simulated it, so that I have an intuitive understanding of how and why the circuit will work. This way when I get into the lab and start testing, I know which parameters to tweak to get the circuit to work. You can waste alot of time and money in the lab trying to get something to work when you could have seen in the model that some part was dissipating 100W when you weren't expecting it and that the design needed scraped and reworked. You can figure all of that out in 20 minutes with a simulator.
Try that when designing an IC and see how long it takes.Pencil & paper,& a brain,can do all that!
If you are working at frequencies where the bond wire inductance affects the circuit, than I understand the simulator can be limited in its predictions. But that's more a fault of inaccurate estimates (or no estimates) that are put in for the various parasitics than a fault of the simulator.........................
They are HORRIBLE in predicting phase margin or stability because they could not accurately reflect the effects of even minor externals like bond wire inductance.
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No sir. All ICs today, even linear regs and garbage grade op amps, have bandwidths that go to at least 100kHz, and many have bandwidths to 5 MHz or more. I guarantee you that simulators don't do a decent job of predicting stability and phase margin. It is not the fault of inaccurate predictions, it is the reality that no models are perfect no matter what people want to believe and that is a fact learned from history.If you are working at frequencies where the bond wire inductance affects the circuit, than I understand the simulator can be limited in its predictions. But that's more a fault of inaccurate estimates (or no estimates) that are put in for the various parasitics than a fault of the simulator.
by Aaron Carman
by Jake Hertz
by Jake Hertz
by Jake Hertz