#  Sign of the times

#### loosewire

Joined Apr 25, 2008
1,571
There are very good operating systems,that require fixed annual fees.
There are no parts or diagrams available unless you are on inside
working day to day. So that leaves us trading information the best we can. Advising students on what has been learned in the past.Twitter is all about texting fees. So nothing beats this system for our purpose
of commuications. Any members with all the bells and whistles wish to disclose monthly fees just for operation under contract.

Last edited:

#### Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
21,840
Sorry, I don't get the point.

What OS are you talking about, for example?

#### loosewire

Joined Apr 25, 2008
1,571
Phone,cable,Satelite any pay for use charge.

#### Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
21,840
Ever read Robert A Heinlien? He was a scifi writer ahead of his time, and added many a new word to the english language, such as "grok".

The word you're looking for is "tanstaafl".

Still don't know what OS would fit under that description. Linux is the opposite, but you pay in reading time.

#### thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,349
Who should pay the guys that continually update servers, repair crashed systems, run the cable so more areas have services, build antennas, design/test/build end user equipment that works out of box and doesn't fail often, and keep everything linked together?

Who would pay for the hardware like IC masking, pc boards, and test equipment that people need to do the above?

If "Government" is the answer, where do governments get their money? What would people do to pay the government if everything above was free from the government?

#### loosewire

Joined Apr 25, 2008
1,571
Try to find a complete diagram on line for any current electronic
product.

#### thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,349
I agree with you on some points, but not the original post as I understood it.

First, Schematics:

For non-disposable electronics by an American based firm, in wide production/distribution, which have no cryptography inside, schematics are sometimes available with a letter to the support department with a small fee. I realize the first line disqualifies much of "Current Production", but a small variety of items still make that list. However, nowhere near what one would like to have. This is partly.. no... MOSTLY a direct result of the highly litigious society people have encouraged to flourish. If a company posted schematics for a microwave oven, they would get sued by somebody, sooner or later, for a wrongful death or something more frivolous.

For the rest of the devices, one is often asked to pay a large amount for the information, in addition to signing non-disclosure agreements, sometimes not even then if not affiliated with an authorized dealer. The latter is not viable, especially since usually it is wanted for repair, not reverse-engineering, and only one item is to be repaired. The reason is a company doesn't want to spend 3 years and a couple million dollars developing a new widget, then have another company with a fab plant sell the product without assisting in reimbursement of R&D costs.

Sometimes one can get lucky with enough searching, find the patent for a broken device, which will give enough information to figure out how to make it work again.

About non-schematic information, but computer related:

The US, the government has passed many laws which forced certain things to be confidential due to their use in the military, or other reasons, such as Hollywood. In the 50's, some companies affected by a few of those laws decided to take the concept further, so that they could get ahead without following traditional rules. IBM was a master of this. They only leased equipment, which could then only be serviced by an official IBM serviceman. Other mainframe level vendors had similar practices, such as Unisys, Cray, etc. Microsoft was born from that practice, but with software, opening up the "IBM Clone" market via the wording of the programmer's agreement with IBM when writing IBM DOS for them. They were allowed to sell that OS on their own. IBM thought that to be a small concession, since people would have to buy an IBM computer to use it anyway. *Trivia: This is why MS DOS and IBM DOS always had 1 version number difference.*

After that, the "IBM Clones" were born, and Microsoft and Apple learned well from their contract with IBM and growing up in an all IBM world. If one thinks OS information is difficult to get today, it was beyond utterly impossible in IBM Years. Apple made it far by mixing the Microsoft Software Trap with the IBM Hardware trap, locking users into All Apple components. Microsoft only wanted everybody to be reliant on them for their Operating system, networking, servers, and office software. To do this, they re-defined standards, and still do. Apple has changed to be more open, as their proprietaryness was killing them. Microsoft has craftily worded EULAs, similar to the one Google had a big problem with, which essentially state "You bought this, but you do not own it".

In addition, people have to pay Microsoft for training and certifications to sell their products, teach others about them in an official capacity, and fix problems with them in an official capacity. Microsoft has those certifications expire, although the product is 'frozen'. This was a practice of Novell prior to Microsoft as well. Microsoft was never really an innovative company, they did extremely well with finding existing policies that generated income, then applied all of them. There is the extra bit with the movie/music industries and anti-piracy, and nearly all is lost as far as getting information about inner workings. With Windows 7, compatible hardware must have all protected content encrypted over any wire, this is already implemented with Vista Ready hardware. See above about schematics, and now the huge umbrella of legally blinding users is clear.

Yearly license fees, obscurity so those fees need to be paid, expiring certifications, not owning what is purchased, etc. Those, I AM against.

In addition to Microsoft, many other software companies, from a well known photo-editing program, to compilers for some microcontrollers are in this area. I choose to not be involved with them, to the point of overtly helping any/all competition. If a company continues to make money with a practice, they will continue the practice. The only way to influence a change in their policy is by supporting more truly "user-friendly" companies. This can be done through helping support them by donating time, knowledge, and experience. I have spent a lot of time assisting with development and support of open source software for this exact reason.

As far as text messages,

<grumpyoldman>
I don't see an issue with a charge of a couple pennies per message. It is actually a bargain compared to a postage stamp. It used to cost a dime to talk to a friend if you weren't home, and you had to walk or drive a while to find a pay phone to even do that, assuming the friend was at home, and you weren't. Otherwise, you ended up looking all over, either on foot, or in a car. Being a HAM back then was great! The convenience and speed of a text/photo phone message that currently costs pennies would have easily been worth thousands of dollars per message in the 1960's-1980's.
</grumpyoldman>

#### loosewire

Joined Apr 25, 2008
1,571
I Understand ever word you wrote,I was speaking in old english to Bill
which he understands, when he wants.