In reference to the thread Why do they post?, I have been thinking about a theory along the lines of the comments some of the people made.

I think that is some of the poorer countries, some educational institutions may be using a "shotgun" method to education. Provide a bare minimum education at a low cost to tons of people and maybe just maybe you will graduate a few that will learn enough to become employed.

Any thoughts?

 

I don't think that observation is limited to poorer countries now that we have made it impossible to fail in US schools. Or, maybe since we are the largest debtor nation, it does apply to us.

John

 

Jeez at the rate education is going it's becoming all too much a commodity. Anyone can get a degree in electronics by just memorising the text book, without ever having to design a circuit, and understand practical implications of components. It's worrying that the few months before an exam consist of basically memorising answers. Which is why I'd like to see exams go and be replaced mostly by coursework, as that's a practical application of it.

 

One problem with course work is that it is too easily duplicated by every other student in the class. Examinations can test knowledge, problem solving, and practical application. But, professors and teachers are not evaluated on whether they write good exams; they are evaluated by the students who just took the exam.

Administration believes that if students do poorly on an exam or find the exam too hard, the professor must be a poor teacher. It is a given that all students work equally hard and are equally bright and capable of learning. Besides, and most important, if the students aren't happy, they will go somewhere else and take their tuition or government capitation payments with them.

John

 

I don't think that observation is limited to poorer countries now that we have made it impossible to fail in US schools.
John

Not impossible to fail in my class, I have several former students that can attest to that. Yes, I have seen lazy instructors. The ones I work with will drop you if you don't/won't do the work.
I've seen several Nursing students leave here crying, as soon as they fail a critical test, they are told they failed the course.
edit: Our reputation is on the line, if we pass students that didn't earn it, our credibility goes down the tubes. In a small community we can't afford that.

 

There is also the question of "conceptual understanding" vs. mathematical explanations. My professor was satisfied with a decent conceptual understanding of circuits for his AAS students that were not going on into engineering fields. (ME ) Now, I come here and read posts like Mr. Wookies' and am totally blown away by the vast differences in our understanding of electronics. Mbohuntr like fire... smoke goood... burn circuit.....

 

Mr. Wookies is experienced (at least with electronics). You must learn to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. Fresh out of school most are just learning to crawl. But after a few years in the field. You will be able to run or walk quite fast.

 

I think the shotgun is used somewhat in US schools, the only time a student doesn't graduate is if they drop out, personally I don't think school should be mandatory, those that want it and see the value will succeed.

 

Not mandatory, huh? Statistics show that 21% of the US citizens believe that the sun rotates around the earth. Imagine now the case where school is not mandatory... Bye bye Mr Galilei...

 

Yep, and 78% of statistics are made up on the spot, and 48% of them are wrong.

I don't buy 21%, source please?

 

It is the difference between having the datasheet and having read the datasheet. The fact that someone goes to school doesn't mean they learn anything. That's what this thread is all about, I thought. I'll bet if that poll were conducted in a farm community of people with no college education, the number would be quite different. They all know where the sun is.

A large part, if not most of the time in an American, big city school is spent dealing with behavior problems. When it is not behavior, it is mainstreamed stupidity. Criticism of a student by a teacher for not working is met with a charge of "racism," and in all likelihood, the teacher is fired or suspended. That just happened in the Cleveland suburb of Richmond Heights. In that case, it was the coach of the basketball team who was suspended for telling the players they needed to work harder.

John

 

I heard it on the radio, it was talking about 2 statistics, actually, one in the 80's and one in late 90's. But I 'll try to find some references.

 

There is a Jay Leno piece called "jaywalking," wherein he interviews people on the street and asks simple questions. The answers are quite comical. Unfortunately, the version I have is 8.6 MB wav file. Maybe it is on YouTube somewhere. Definitely worth seeing.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRJFvCsTdy4

John

 

Here's what I found:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/3742/new-poll-gauges-americans-general-knowledge-levels.aspx
(last table)

I also found a reference for a similar percentage (15%) in a survey done by the US National Research Council, but I haven't been able to locate the actual survey.

 

There is a Jay Leno piece called "jaywalking," wherein he interviews people on the street and asks simple questions. The answers are quite comical. Unfortunately, the version I have is 8.6 MB wav file. Maybe it is on YouTube somewhere. Definitely worth seeing.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRJFvCsTdy4

John

Poor man, he couldn't take it in the end...

 

Interesting, so the Americans did better on the sun question than the Germans or British.

As for the July 4th question, that illustrates one of the major problems of such surveys. Given the listed responses, none is actually completely correct (except "other").

1) Signing of the Declaration of 
    Independence/day it was signed: 55%
2) Independence Day: 	            32
3) Birth of United States 	     1
4) Other 	                     6
5) No opinion 	                     6
  	                           100%

One could argue that #'s 1 and 2 are equally almost correct, thus people picked them in preference to the others.

Such widespread ignorance is not new. There have been many studies done to find out how well physicians communicate with their patients. When challenged with simple anatomic terms, like heart, stomach, abdomen, a very large percentage of patients cannot locate the area correctly.

John

 

When i said not mandatory, i meant highschool, by then students have shown wether they value education or if theyre just going to waste highschool causing trouble. I dont understand how people can go through life without even knowing things like that, i know that in our school we learned all the major organs in third grade and ive never forgotten them...

Theres an idiot born every minuet i guess

 

When i said not mandatory, i meant highschool, by then students have shown wether they value education or if theyre just going to waste highschool causing trouble. I dont understand how people can go through life without even knowing things like that, i know that in our school we learned all the major organs in third grade and ive never forgotten them...

Theres an idiot born every minuet i guess

You mean like learning to capitalize and to punctuate in high school. They can be important to communication.

John

 

ok first of all , please define the "shotgun" approach to education ?

 

I must disagree on the mandatory education issue. If we allow a large segment of our population to "opt out" of a basic education, there will be a surge of under-employed , unemployable people relying on public assistance for their survival. Mexico may find the illegal alien issue reversed...

When I was about 14, I told my parents I wanted to drop out of school. Their reply was: OK, then you will have to get a full time job and start paying rent equal to what a stranger would. I used my simple math skills and figured out that would mean HALF my pay at minimum wages... That vs. a well paying job as a certified welder..... Where did I leave my school books????